Dar-al-Masnavi

[Dar-al-Masnavi] Sultan Walad conference

2012-02-13T03:14:00.000-03:00

Here is the paper I presented at the Sultan Walad conference in
Istanbul and Konya in December:
http://dar-al-masnavi.org/walad-symposium.pdf

Here are the corresponding Persian texts:
http://dar-al-masnavi.org/walad-symposium-text.pdf

Sultan Walad was Mawlana Rumi's son, who wrote a large amount of
poetry. I know of no translations of his poetry in English except what
is on my website:
http://dar-al-masnavi.org/walad-poetry.html

Ibrahim

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[Dar-al-Masnavi] Recordings in Persian of four ghazals

2012-01-29T17:38:00.000-03:00

Here is a link to the recordings, the Persian texts, and English
translations:
http://dar-al-masnavi.org/rietberg-museum-ghazals.html

Ibrahim

Re: [Dar-al-Masnavi] Re: The lamp has become different

2012-01-07T02:20:00.000-03:00

Salaam Es, I agree entirely with what you have written here. But we were talking about religions and paths and teachings and I don't see them as necessarily fostering that inner light we are all born with. Indeed even Islam and Sufism doesn't automatically do that. It's more complex isn't it? Iljas

On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 8:13 AM, E.S.Quinlan <eqpost@gmail.com> wrote:

Iljas,
As you say, metaphors have limitations and Allah knows best. My point was that each human being by virtue of being created by Allah has a little divine spark (ruh) which is our little light or flashlight. If we align that little light with the greater light of a Messenger, we will see more than we could on our own. It's that little light in us that recognizes the big light,to put it very simply.

I wouldn't dare claim I know the full reality of what a messenger or prophet (rasul or nabi) is--but I do know that all human beings are Allah's, so of course he has sent guidance to them all, in many guises. Consequently, strikes me as astoundingly arrogant for people to claim that they know who Allah guides when He has told us in The Book that "each person acts according to his nature and Allah alone knows who is rightly guided" and that "whoever surrenders his whole being/self to Allah and acts beautifully" will be saved.

Sincerely and with Salaams,
ES

On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 9:45 PM, Iljas Baker <iljasbaker@gmail.com> wrote:

Salaam,

Interesting comment from ESQ but I wonder what aligning one's smaller light to a bigger one might mean. You don't need a flashlight when the sun comes out and clearly the sun and a flashlight are different. Of course metaphors have their limitations. Practically speaking, it seems impossible for everyone to accept the same path and even those who think they are on the right path would be foolish to think it guarantees them anything. And who really understands the right path these days or the reality of a Messenger? You have to have a certain wideness of heart and a willingness to learn because clearly God knows best.

Iljas

On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 1:30 AM, E.S.Quinlan <eqpost@gmail.com> wrote:

Salaam All,

A few thoughts on Arslaan's question:

We know there is only One Light (Al-Nur): the hearts of all the Messengers are illuminated by that One Light. To carry the metaphor a bit further, we could say that some lamps are larger than others, but why do that? One can walk through a forest with a flashlight or a lantern.

The wonderful, beautiful thing is that Allah sends light to all people to guide them through the forest of this world on their journey back to their Creator. Even people who have no recognized Messenger, have a heart that when not covered over by ignorance, is a small light. As we know though, it's only too easy for this small light to be dimmed by forces of darkness and circumstances. Hence the wisdom of aligning one's little lamp with the large lamp of a Messenger.

Kind Regards,
Sakinah

On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 3:55 PM, dharps@juno.com <dharps@juno.com> wrote:

Ibrahim Efendi and Friends: I am appreciating this conversation.
Please explain how the 25 Prophets mentioned in the Qur'an, and the 100,000 Prophets, thought to have come before the final Prophet, fit into the conversation.

Peace
Arsalaan

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Re: [Dar-al-Masnavi] Re: The lamp has become different

2012-01-06T22:13:00.000-03:00

Iljas,
As you say, metaphors have limitations and Allah knows best. My point was that each human being by virtue of being created by Allah has a little divine spark (ruh) which is our little light or flashlight. If we align that little light with the greater light of a Messenger, we will see more than we could on our own. It's that little light in us that recognizes the big light,to put it very simply.

I wouldn't dare claim I know the full reality of what a messenger or prophet (rasul or nabi) is--but I do know that all human beings are Allah's, so of course he has sent guidance to them all, in many guises. Consequently, strikes me as astoundingly arrogant for people to claim that they know who Allah guides when He has told us in The Book that "each person acts according to his nature and Allah alone knows who is rightly guided" and that "whoever surrenders his whole being/self to Allah and acts beautifully" will be saved.

Sincerely and with Salaams,
ES

On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 9:45 PM, Iljas Baker <iljasbaker@gmail.com> wrote:

Salaam,

Interesting comment from ESQ but I wonder what aligning one's smaller light to a bigger one might mean. You don't need a flashlight when the sun comes out and clearly the sun and a flashlight are different. Of course metaphors have their limitations. Practically speaking, it seems impossible for everyone to accept the same path and even those who think they are on the right path would be foolish to think it guarantees them anything. And who really understands the right path these days or the reality of a Messenger? You have to have a certain wideness of heart and a willingness to learn because clearly God knows best.

Iljas

On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 1:30 AM, E.S.Quinlan <eqpost@gmail.com> wrote:

Salaam All,

A few thoughts on Arslaan's question:

We know there is only One Light (Al-Nur): the hearts of all the Messengers are illuminated by that One Light. To carry the metaphor a bit further, we could say that some lamps are larger than others, but why do that? One can walk through a forest with a flashlight or a lantern.

The wonderful, beautiful thing is that Allah sends light to all people to guide them through the forest of this world on their journey back to their Creator. Even people who have no recognized Messenger, have a heart that when not covered over by ignorance, is a small light. As we know though, it's only too easy for this small light to be dimmed by forces of darkness and circumstances. Hence the wisdom of aligning one's little lamp with the large lamp of a Messenger.

Kind Regards,
Sakinah

On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 3:55 PM, dharps@juno.com <dharps@juno.com> wrote:

Ibrahim Efendi and Friends: I am appreciating this conversation.
Please explain how the 25 Prophets mentioned in the Qur'an, and the 100,000 Prophets, thought to have come before the final Prophet, fit into the conversation.

Peace
Arsalaan

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1 ridiculously huge coupon a day. Get 50-90% off your city's best!
Groupon.com

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[Dar-al-Masnavi] Re: The lamp has become different

2012-01-06T06:17:00.000-03:00

Dear Sakinah,
Wa `alaykuma 's-salâm,

Thank you for uploading your paper, which shows that you have studied
a lot about mysticism. When you posted it, I was busy preparing for a
three-week trip to Istanbul and Konya in December, but now that I am
back I had time to study it and do some reearch. You said you would
value any comments I might have about it, so...

Your paper must have communicated very well, I think, to an audience
who had little knowledge of Rumi.

You do not agree that Rumi advocates an inclusivist ecumenism that
would blend religious distinctions into an interfaith mélange; an
inclusivism that would be a spiritual path not based on any particular
religious tradition and that patches together practices and doctrines
that suit one's tastes. Instead, you view Rumi as advocating a
pluralistic ecumenism (which you defined elsewhere as believing that
all authentic spiritual ways lead to the Truth [al-Haqqq]). You also
view Rumi as advocating a convergent ecumenism, which you describe as
the nature of mysticism to unify distinctions based on the experience
of absorption in the Divine in which language becomes utterly
inadequate.

You explain well how Rumi was the fruit of an established esoteric
spiritual tradition of Islamic mysticism, that he was a devout Muslim
who performed the daily prayers required of all Muslims, and that he
observed the other pillars of Islam. And you mention how contemporary
popularizers of Rumi's poetry downplay his Islamic heritage because of
the negative view of Islam in the West.

p. 1--"This son of yours will set the spiritual aspirants of this
world on fire": These words of the sufi poet, `Attar, allegedly spoken
to Rumi' father when Rumi was a boy are not in the oldest Persian
sources; this apocryphal story about meeting `Attar was written two
hundred years after Rumi's death. This story is commonly included in
books and articles about Rumi.

--"He has crossed the boundaries of East and West and the boundaries
of all religions." I see little evidence of the second half of the
sentence, as you know.

--"He himself predicted that his works would cross all boundaries."
This is true; Aflaki quotes him as saying, "By God, by God, from the
place where the sun rises to the place where it sets, the deep
spiritual meaning [ma`nâ] (of the words of the Mathnawî) will take
hold and extend. And it will travel to (all) the climates [or regions]
(of the world)."

--"the best-known translator of Rumi, Coleman Barks": He is not a
translator, he cannot read Persian, he re-Englishes the real
translations of others and interprets them however he pleases.

--"translator… Edmund Helminski": He is not a translator for the same
reason as Barks; his reinterpretations are usually more responsible
because he is a Muslim sufi and a Mevlevi.

--"Out beyond ideas of right doing and wrong doing there is a field.
I'll meet you there": This is one of the best-known and memorized
"Rumi poems" in English–-but it is more Barks than Rumi. Here is an
accurate translation: "Beyond Islam and unbelief there is a 'desert
plain.' For us, there is a 'passion' in the midst of that expanse. The
knower [of God] who reaches there will prostrate [in prayer],/ (For)
there is neither Islam nor unbelief, nor any 'where' (in) that place."
Footnote on beyond Islam and unbelief: "For Muslim mystics, the
presence of God's reality is so evident that mental concepts about
belief or unbelief about God's existence can seem irrelevant."--from
The Quatrains of Rumi, translated by Ibrahim Gamard and Ravan Farhadi,
2008, p. 407. From an interview: "For example, Barks says he rewrote a
Rumi line that originally read in English, 'out beyond what is holy in
Islam and what is not permitted in Islam' to 'out beyond ideas of
wrongdoing and right- doing.' 'I took the Islam out of it,' Barks says
in a phone interview from his home in Athens, Georgia. 'Yeah, the
fundamentalists or people who think there is one particular revelation
scold me for this.'"

p. 3--"He could feel completely comfortable practicing one religion
while simultaneously accepting the efficacy of other religions. He
could do this because Islam teaches that all the traditions lead to
God and thus all traditions have a divine power to "save" human
souls." Where does Rumi state or suggest that other religions are
effective in the salvation of the souls of their believers? Do you
really believe that Islam teaches what you stated (and later called
pluralism)? To me, the Qur'an is mildly "pluralistic," in that it
states that the Jewish prophets of the past and their faithful
followers, as well as the Christian disciples of Jesus and some
Christian monks were sincere submitters (muslims) to the Will of God.
But religions other than Christianity are not mentioned in the Qur'an
(that is, except for polytheism and the monotheism of the Sabians, who
are not clearly described). Yes, as Arsalaan wrote, Islam teaches that
there are known prophets and many other unknown prophets. But even if
we assume that the originators of Hinduism and Buddhism were rightly
guided prophets sent by Allah, the conclusion is the same: these
religions somehow developed idol-worship, and in the view of the
Muslims, these had similarities to the idol-worship of the pagan
Arabs.

p. 4--"..these words of Rumi come to mind: 'Every prophet and every
saint has a path, but all paths lead to God. / All paths are really
one.' Mathnawi, Book I:3086" This is a reinterpretation of
Nicholson's accurate translation--"Every prophet and every saint hath
a way (of religious doctrine and practice), but it leads to God: all
(the ways) are (really) one." [har nabî-wo har walî-râ maslakê-st/ lêk
tâ Haq mê-bar-ad jumla yakî-st] هر نبی و هر ولی را مسلکیست * لیک تا
حق می بَرَد جمله یکیست This quote is completely consistent with the
teachings of traditional Islamic sufism. It does not refer to other
religions such as Hinduism and Buddhism, as version-makers have
changed it to imply.

p. 5--"I am neither Christian nor Jew nor Magian, nor Muslim": This is
from an inauthentic ghazal, not by Rumi, not in the oldest
manuscripts; its final verse ("O Shams...") is a forgery.

--"...in the Discourses, he puts it this way: While beliefs vary from
place to place, faith is essentially the same.....If you break the
cups, the water will be unified and will flow together.": These appear
to be two separate quotes taken from the Internet. I did word searches
in Masnavi and the Discourses and could find neither. (But the first
quote may be an interpretive version made from Masnavi IV: 408: "The
Faithful are numerous, but the Faith is one"). Did find this quote,
translated from Turkish, but no source: "There are many languages in
the world, in meaning all are the same. If you break the cups, water
will be unified and will flow together."

--"Come back! Come back! Whoever you may be, Whether an infidel, a
fire-worshipper, or a pagan": This is not an authentic quatrain; it
was composed two hundred years before Rumi. Here is an accurate
translation:
"Return (in repentance), return! Whatever you are, return!  Even if
you are an unbeliever or a Magian, or an idol worshipper, return!
This court of ours is not a court of despair.  Even if you have broken
(your) repentance a hundred times, return!"
A calligraphy of this quatrain used to be in Rumi's mausoleum (but not
in the entrance way), but the calligraphy has been removed (as I
noticed last month when I was in Konya). The version you quoted ends
oddly: "Just come as you are"--There may be some confusion here with
another inauthentic Rumi quote (popular in Turkey): "Either appear as
you are or be as you appear".

p. 6--"Eyewitnesses said, "All the religious communities joined in the
procession": This is an accurate translation from Aflaki's story of
Rumi's funeral procession. But "all the religious communities" means
all the religious communities present in Konya (Jews and Christians in
addition to the Muslims leading it). It does not mean members of all
the world's major religious communities (Hindus, Buddhists,
Zoroastrians, Manichaens, etc.) were in Konya for the funeral as some
popularizers have interpreted.

Sakinah, you asked for my comments on your paper. I hope you won't be
too reactive. I've tried to minimize my opinions and give you accurate
information. You had no way of knowing that so many of your Rumi
quotations are inauthentic, and you trusted that a quote from a book
or a web page was from Rumi because it said so--like thousands of
others have believed. But I've researched these things for many years
and have learned not to accept any quote unless I've seen it in a
Persian text (from an edition based on the earliest manuscripts).

Ibrahim
-----------

On Nov 30 2011, 6:17 pm, "E.S.Quinlan" <eqp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Ibrahim,
> It's true that the Mathnawi doesn't show much appreciation of other
> traditions.
> I think it's more useful for us to ask what would be Mevlana's position
> were he alive to day and if he had access to those other texts and contact
> with those other saints and mystics that you mention. His poetry has done
> much good in bringing believers together--and come together we must in
> these times full of fanaticism, fundamentalism, and materialism. The
> people who wrote about Rumi in his own time and afterwards, like Aflaki,
> were not on his level, so we can't take their view of him as definitive.
> I've attached my paper. Please note that it was written for an oral
> presentation to audience that knew next to nothing about Mevlana. Thank you
> for your reply. I would value any comments you have about the paper.
>
> Salaam,
> Sakinah
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 5:46 PM, Ibrahim <daralmasnavi....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Dear Sakinah,
> > Salâm,
>
> > Yes please attach your paper, if you can. For years, I wanted Mawlana
> > to be supportive of religious pluralism (thanks for giving a good
> > definition of the term), and presented such at inter-religious
> > gatherings. But, as I said, over time I could not see enough evidence
> > to support this view. My belief in it just gradually withered. I
> > didn't have a desire or motive that Mawlana not to be viewed as a
> > pluralist (such as based on a view that Islam is the only religion
> > that contains true teachings). Religious pluralism is very modern and
> > many people project it on to Mawlana as if he was as broad-minded as
> > we. But, unlike us, he did not have access to translations of the
> > Bible, the Bhagavad Gita, the Diamond Sutra, the Tao Te Ching, etc.
> > The derogatory references to Jews and Christians in his Divan-e Kabir
> > shows him to have held conventional Muslim views of people of other
> > religions. If he was so conventional in his views of Jews and
> > Christians, how could he be accepting of "Hindoos"? Tolerance of other
> > religions necessitates knowledge of the selfless detachment and
> > compassion of many Buddhists, the love of God cultivated by many
> > Bhakti Hindus, the service to the poor of many Christians, the
> > historical willingness of Jews to be martyred for the sake of pure
> > monotheism rather than be forced to worship an idol or king, the
> > pursuit of good thoughts and actions of many Zoroastrians, etc.
> > Mawlana's works do not show evidence of such appreciation. Yes,
> > Aflaki's hagiography describes some stories of Mawlana's kindness
> > toward Christians, but most of those stories end with the requisite
> > conversion to Islam.
>
> > Ibrahim
>
> > On Nov 30, 12:17 pm, "E.S.Quinlan" <eqp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Salaam, Ibrahim.
> > > My question was not about textual evidence; I'm famiilar with both sides
> > > of the issue. My question was about your motives i.e why you want
> > Mevalana
> > > not to be perceived as a religious pluralist--which I take to mean
> > someone
> > > who agrees that "all authentic spiritual ways lead to The Truth
> > (Al-Haqq)."
> > > A few years ago I presented a paper on the nature of Rumi's ecumenism at
> > a
> > > conference. If you are interested, I can send it as an attachment.
>
> > > Sincerely,
> > > Sakinah
>
> > > On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 12:34 AM, Ibrahim <daralmasnavi....@gmail.com
> > >wrote:
>
> > > > For years I believed that he accepted it, mainly based on the verses
> > > > from the story of Moses and the Shepherd, in which God tells Moses:
> > > > "In the Hindoos the idiom of Hind (India) is praiseworthy; in the
> > > > Sindians the idiom of Sind is praiseworthy....I look not at the tongue
> > > > and the speech; I look at the inward (spirit) and the state (of
> > > > feeling)." [Masnavi II: 1757-59, trans. by Niccholson]. But later I
> > > > came to understand the first quoted verse differently. And after
> > > > studying Mawlana's works for years in Persian, I simply did not find
> > > > the evidence for it and concluded that he knew little about other
> > > > religions besides what he learned from a traditional Islamic
> > > > education. I found that most of the verses used in support of
> > > > religious pluralism are inauthentic (not in the earliest manuscripts).
> > > > As a result, I found myself having a minority viewpoint--in contrast
> > > > to the majority who strongly believe he accepted religious pluralism.
> > > > Now I'll ask you: what authentic verses from Mawlana's works can you
> > > > cite that support the view that he accepted religious pluralism?
>
> > > > Ibrahim
>
> > > > On Nov 29, 8:42 pm, "E.S.Quinlan" <eqp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > Ask yourself *why* you want to believe that Rumi did not accept
> > religious
> > > > > pluralism.
>
> > > > > On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 3:02 PM, Ibrahim <daralmasnavi....@gmail.com
>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > K replied:
>
> > > > > > W'salam,
> > > > > > Thank you Sheikh Ibrahim, for your information, the problem of
> > > > > > religious pluralism in Malaysia and Indonesia becoming serious
> > today
> > > > > > and many pluralists use Rumi's statement to justify their idea. I
> > > > > > checked the English translation and the Arabic one, I compared to
> > the
> > > > > > Persian translation, as I know little bit, I found out that
> > > > > > Nicholson's rendition in the book (Rumi: Poet and Mystic)
> > misleading,
> > > > > > especially his attempt to mix the last part of fasl 48 with the
> > > > > > beginning of fasl 49. Although his English translation can be still
> > > > > > reliable. A person who depend on the small book assuming his
> > authority
> > > > > > in the literature will reasonably believe that Rumi did promote
> > > > > > religious pluralism. So, what I'm doing is to explain what exactly
> > > > > > Rumi said in his Mathnawi by giving the whole story and not a
> > partial
> > > > > > rendition as Nicholson did. Now that you have confirmed that
> > Maulana
> > > > > > has nothing to do with this misunderstanding, I'm glad and very
> > > > > > thankful for your kindness.
>
> > > > > > On Nov 1, 1:32 pm, Ibrahim <daralmasnavi....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > A brother from Malaysia recently wrote:
>
> > > > > > > Salam,
> > > > > > > Dear Sheikh Ibrahim,
> > > > > > > I would appreciate very much if you can show me the persian text
> > of
> > > > > > > Nicholson's translation on The One true Light. (Nicholson, Rumi:
> > Poet
> > > > > > > and Mystic, 1950, p. 166). Where he says: "The lamps are
> > different
> > > > and
> > > > > > > the light is the same, it comes from the same source". (Nicholson
> > > > said
> > > > > > > it is in Mathnawi III: 1259) but when I refer to it I only get
> > (as in
> > > > > > > your translation): 1259 (An) elephant was in a dark building.
>
> > > > > > > Dear K,
> > > > > > > Salâm,
>
> > > > > > > Nicholson's citation here is not correct; he should have written:
> > > > III:
> > > > > > > 1255. There is a problem with his rendition, which is that it is
> > a
> > > > > > > version and not a literal translation (compare below). Rumi
> > > > > > > popularizers have used the version as a "Nicholson translation"
> > in
> > > > > > > order to promote Mawlana as teaching the universality of
> > religions,
> > > > as
> > > > > > > in a recent example on the Internet: "...the eternal yet timely
> > > > > > > message of Love, the essential Oneness of all faiths and of life
> > > > > > > itself, as taught by Jalaluddin Rumi and his dervish mentor,
> > Shams of
> > > > > > > Tabriz."
>
> > > > > > > The rendition, "The lamps are different, but the light is the
> > same"
> > > > > > > can be interpreted to mean that Mawlana taught that all religions
> > > > have
> > > > > > > an essential equality and validity because they are illuminated
> > by
> > > > the
> > > > > > > same Light of Truth. But Mawlana did not say that the lamps (=
> > > > > > > religions) are different. He said that the lamp (meaning the
> > outward
> > > > > > > form of the true religion since the time of Moses) has become
> > > > > > > different but the Light (of Revelation) remains the same; the
> > lamp
> > > > and
> > > > > > > wick (which are also different) are illuminated by the same
> > Light.
> > > > > > > Although the context has to do with the "Light of Moses" (the
> > series
> > > > > > > of Divine revelations transmitted by the Prophets), there is also
> > > > here
> > > > > > > a reference to the Light verse in the Qur'an (24:35). And
> > Mawlana did
> > > > > > > not imply the equality of those of different religions by saying,
> > > > "the
> > > > > > > disagreement between Moslem, Zoroastrian and Jew [Muslim-o Gabr-o
> > > > > > > Jahuud] depends on the standpoint"-- he said "between the (true)
> > > > > > > Believer [muu'min], Zoroastrian, and Jew".
>
> > > > > > > Interestingly, Nicholson did not himself interpret these verses
> > as
> > > > > > > implying the universality of religions. He wrote: "Religions are
> > > > many,
> > > > > > > God is One. The intellect, groping in the dark, cannot form any
> > > > > > > conception of His nature. Only the clairvoyant eye of the mystic
> > sees
> > > > > > > Him as He really is."
>
> > > > > > > On another topic, Mawlana uses the word "Hendow" in three ways:
> > as a
> > > > > > > Muslim from India, as a slave, and symbolically as someone with a
> > > > dark
> > > > > > > nature (often contrasted with "Turk", someone with a bright
> > nature).
> > > > > > > Here, the Hindus exhibiting the elephant are best understood as
> > > > Indian
> > > > > > > Muslims.
>
> > > > > > > Ibrahim
> > > > > > > ----------
>
> > > > > > > The lamps are different, but the Light is the same: it comes from
> > > > > > > Beyond.
> > > > > > > If thou keep looking at the lamp, thou art lost: for thence
> > arises
> > > > > > > the appearance of numbers and plurality.
> > > > > > > Fix thy gaze upon the Light, and thou art delivered from the
> > > > > > > dualism inherent in the finite body.
> > > > > > > O thou who art the kernel of Existence, the disagreement
> > between
> > > > > > > Moslem, Zoroastrian and Jew depends on the standpoint.
>
> > > > > > > Some Hindus brought an elephant…
> > > > > > > --Nicholson,
>
> ...
>
> read more »
>
> Quinlan_Rumi's_Ecumenical_Vision.pdf
> 352KViewDownload

Re: [Dar-al-Masnavi] Re: The lamp has become different

2011-12-24T01:45:00.000-03:00

Salaam,

Interesting comment from ESQ but I wonder what aligning one's smaller light to a bigger one might mean. You don't need a flashlight when the sun comes out and clearly the sun and a flashlight are different. Of course metaphors have their limitations. Practically speaking, it seems impossible for everyone to accept the same path and even those who think they are on the right path would be foolish to think it guarantees them anything. And who really understands the right path these days or the reality of a Messenger? You have to have a certain wideness of heart and a willingness to learn because clearly God knows best.

Iljas

On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 1:30 AM, E.S.Quinlan <eqpost@gmail.com> wrote:

Salaam All,

A few thoughts on Arslaan's question:

We know there is only One Light (Al-Nur): the hearts of all the Messengers are illuminated by that One Light. To carry the metaphor a bit further, we could say that some lamps are larger than others, but why do that? One can walk through a forest with a flashlight or a lantern.

The wonderful, beautiful thing is that Allah sends light to all people to guide them through the forest of this world on their journey back to their Creator. Even people who have no recognized Messenger, have a heart that when not covered over by ignorance, is a small light. As we know though, it's only too easy for this small light to be dimmed by forces of darkness and circumstances. Hence the wisdom of aligning one's little lamp with the large lamp of a Messenger.

Kind Regards,
Sakinah

On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 3:55 PM, dharps@juno.com <dharps@juno.com> wrote:

Ibrahim Efendi and Friends: I am appreciating this conversation.
Please explain how the 25 Prophets mentioned in the Qur'an, and the 100,000 Prophets, thought to have come before the final Prophet, fit into the conversation.

Peace
Arsalaan

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Re: [Dar-al-Masnavi] Re: The lamp has become different

2011-12-22T15:30:00.000-03:00

Salaam All,

A few thoughts on Arslaan's question:

We know there is only One Light (Al-Nur): the hearts of all the Messengers are illuminated by that One Light. To carry the metaphor a bit further, we could say that some lamps are larger than others, but why do that? One can walk through a forest with a flashlight or a lantern.

The wonderful, beautiful thing is that Allah sends light to all people to guide them through the forest of this world on their journey back to their Creator. Even people who have no recognized Messenger, have a heart that when not covered over by ignorance, is a small light. As we know though, it's only too easy for this small light to be dimmed by forces of darkness and circumstances. Hence the wisdom of aligning one's little lamp with the large lamp of a Messenger.

Kind Regards,
Sakinah

On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 3:55 PM, dharps@juno.com <dharps@juno.com> wrote:

Ibrahim Efendi and Friends: I am appreciating this conversation.
Please explain how the 25 Prophets mentioned in the Qur'an, and the 100,000 Prophets, thought to have come before the final Prophet, fit into the conversation.

Peace
Arsalaan

____________________________________________________________
Groupon&#8482 Official Site
1 ridiculously huge coupon a day. Get 50-90% off your city's best!
Groupon.com

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[Dar-al-Masnavi] Re: The lamp has become different

2011-12-02T19:55:00.000-03:00

Ibrahim Efendi and Friends: I am appreciating this conversation.

Please explain how the 25 Prophets mentioned in the Qur'an, and the 100,000 Prophets, thought to have come before the final Prophet, fit into the conversation.

Peace

Arsalaan

Re: [Dar-al-Masnavi] Digest for dar-al-masnavi@googlegroups.com - 7 Messages in 1 Topic

2011-12-02T12:28:00.000-03:00

Salaam, Rizwan.

It's unfortunate that you have the impression or feeling that anyone is "lecturing" anyone. We are having an exploration and a discussion. My understanding is that this discussion is open to all lovers of The Real who participate with adab.As Mevlana says, The sect of Love is apart from all religions: for lovers, the religion and creed is God. (2:1170)

In each culture, Mevlana is loved and understood through certain cultural filters. For many Americans and Europeans, the filter of the "authority of shaykhs" doesn't have much credibility, regardless of where they were educated.

I do like the saying you quoted and would point out two implications of it: "See the One everywhere, but do not endorse every path as leading to the One.": (1) a person could be an orthodox Muslim and not be following a path that leads to The One in the mystical sense. He or she might avoid The Fire, yes. but that's not the same thing as realizing The One; and (2) although not every path leads to the goal, there is not just a single path that does.We can't tell--from the outside or by the label--because "Each person acts according to his nature and Allah alone knows who is rightly guided." (Sorry, I don't have the Qur'an citation handy.)

Sincerely,
Sakinah

On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 12:12 PM, Rizwan <sohrabmountain@yahoo.com> wrote:

Salam to all

sorry for interjecting, but I didn't mean to write [have only been reading for a year] but recently it seems people are lecturing Shaykh Ibrahim on how to interpret Mevlana. Rather we should be learning from the Shaykh to better understand Hazrat Mevlana.

I'm a Chishti mureed from Pakistan, the "pluralistic" sub-continent, and I'm afraid that my Sufi Masters' understanding of Wahdat ul Wujood and their explanation of it is strictly Islamic, not pluralistic at all.

Please see this Sufi elaboration of Wahdat ul Wujoood: http://cyclewalabanda.blogspot.com/2008/11/oneness-of-being.

Hazrat Shahidullah Faridi was an Oxford-educated convert to Islam who became a great Sufi shaykh in the Chishti order.

Here is another Shaykh on the same:
http://cyclewalabanda.blogspot.com/2007/07/sufi-conception-of-god.html

All these Shaykhs quite clearly reinforce Shaykh Ibrahim's position.

Sufis see the One everywhere, but do not endorse every Path as leading to the One.
The only "pluralistic" shaykh of any repute in the subcontinent was Hazrat Ghous Ali Shah Qalander Panipati [mid 19th century], author of the famous Tazkira e Ghousia. However his pluralism is limited to accepting monotheists such as the Advaita Vedantists and the Kabir Panthis, but rejecting the polytheistic, common Hinduism. Even then, Hazrat Ghous Ali Shah is considered radical and not representative of mainstream Sufism.

So to reiterate, let us learn from a genuine Sufi Teacher in the authentic Order of Hazrat Mevlana and be humble and observe the adeb of the Path.

God bless,
sorry if this offends anyone it's not directed at anybody in particular
wassalam
Rizwanullah

From: "passion2solace@gmail.com" <passion2solace@gmail.com>
To: dar-al-masnavi@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2011 12:11 PM
Subject: Re: [Dar-al-Masnavi] Digest for dar-al-masnavi@googlegroups.com - 7 Messages in 1 Topic

Dear all..
While I am a mere student of Maulana's work and too a beginner, comparing to Ibrahim, Sakina and others, yet I would like to point out that any discussion of Rumi's pluralism must include the his adherence or otherwise, to Wahda al Wujoiod, because I believe pluralism is one of the fundamental percepts of Wahdat ul Wujood, and such profession of pluralism is so openly expressed by none other than Ibn Al Arbi in his famous ghazal...."Laqad kuntu qabl al youmi ukiru sahibi...iza lam yakun deenu hu ila deeni daani...faqad saara qalbi qabilan kulla sooratin....".
Now, if rumi is to be considered adhrent of wahdat ul wujood it is but natural for him and his message to have a tone of pluralism. His adherence to wahdat ul wajood I think serves as quite strong evidence of plural. Rarely if ever we will find a notable sufi of wahdat order not professing pluralism, and many of such sufis did'nt have access to texts of other religions yet probably through their wijdaan they came to understand the pluralism (by the way I would alsoi take issue with this premise as well that to believ and profess pluralism, one needs to have studdied and that too deeply, of other religions and faiths, unless we see comparative study of religions as integral and essential part of religion).
Such expression of pluralism is very common among muslim sufis I'd india many of whom knew and studied very little if at all about non-indian religions, such as zeortest or taoism and even judaism, yet they firmly believed in plularism and preached the same in quite open and unimbigious terms.
Regards
Salman
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Re: [Dar-al-Masnavi] Digest for dar-al-masnavi@googlegroups.com - 7 Messages in 1 Topic

2011-12-01T16:12:00.000-03:00

Salam to all

sorry for interjecting, but I didn't mean to write [have only been reading for a year] but recently it seems people are lecturing Shaykh Ibrahim on how to interpret Mevlana. Rather we should be learning from the Shaykh to better understand Hazrat Mevlana.

I'm a Chishti mureed from Pakistan, the "pluralistic" sub-continent, and I'm afraid that my Sufi Masters' understanding of Wahdat ul Wujood and their explanation of it is strictly Islamic, not pluralistic at all.

Please see this Sufi elaboration of Wahdat ul Wujoood: http://cyclewalabanda.blogspot.com/2008/11/oneness-of-being.

Hazrat Shahidullah Faridi was an Oxford-educated convert to Islam who became a great Sufi shaykh in the Chishti order.

Here is another Shaykh on the same:

http://cyclewalabanda.blogspot.com/2007/07/sufi-conception-of-god.html

All these Shaykhs quite clearly reinforce Shaykh Ibrahim's position.

Sufis see the One everywhere, but do not endorse every Path as leading to the One.

The only "pluralistic" shaykh of any repute in the subcontinent was Hazrat Ghous Ali Shah Qalander Panipati [mid 19th century], author of the famous Tazkira e Ghousia. However his pluralism is limited to accepting monotheists such as the Advaita Vedantists and the Kabir Panthis, but rejecting the polytheistic, common Hinduism. Even then, Hazrat Ghous Ali Shah is considered radical and not representative of mainstream Sufism.

So to reiterate, let us learn from a genuine Sufi Teacher in the authentic Order of Hazrat Mevlana and be humble and observe the adeb of the Path.

God bless,

sorry if this offends anyone it's not directed at anybody in particular

wassalam

Rizwanullah

From: "passion2solace@gmail.com" <passion2solace@gmail.com>
To: dar-al-masnavi@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2011 12:11 PM
Subject: Re: [Dar-al-Masnavi] Digest for dar-al-masnavi@googlegroups.com - 7 Messages in 1 Topic

Dear all..
While I am a mere student of Maulana's work and too a beginner, comparing to Ibrahim, Sakina and others, yet I would like to point out that any discussion of Rumi's pluralism must include the his adherence or otherwise, to Wahda al Wujoiod, because I believe pluralism is one of the fundamental percepts of Wahdat ul Wujood, and such profession of pluralism is so openly expressed by none other than Ibn Al Arbi in his famous ghazal...."Laqad kuntu qabl al youmi ukiru sahibi...iza lam yakun deenu hu ila deeni daani...faqad saara qalbi qabilan kulla sooratin....".
Now, if rumi is to be considered adhrent of wahdat ul wujood it is but natural for him and his message to have a tone of pluralism. His adherence to wahdat ul wajood I think serves as quite strong evidence of plural. Rarely if ever we will find a notable sufi of wahdat order not professing pluralism, and many of such sufis did'nt have access to texts of other religions yet probably through their wijdaan they came to understand the pluralism (by the way I would alsoi take issue with this premise as well that to believ and profess pluralism, one needs to have studdied and that too deeply, of other religions and faiths, unless we see comparative study of religions as integral and essential part of religion).
Such expression of pluralism is very common among muslim sufis I'd india many of whom knew and studied very little if at all about non-indian religions, such as zeortest or taoism and even judaism, yet they firmly believed in plularism and preached the same in quite open and unimbigious terms.
Regards
Salman

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Re: [Dar-al-Masnavi] Digest for dar-al-masnavi@googlegroups.com - 7 Messages in 1 Topic

2011-12-01T04:11:00.000-03:00

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

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The lamp has become different [7 Updates]

The lamp has become different

"E.S.Quinlan" <eqpost@gmail.com>

Ibrahim <daralmasnavi.org@gmail.com>

Iljas Baker <iljasbaker@gmail.com>

"E.S.Quinlan" <eqpost@gmail.com>

Ibrahim <daralmasnavi.org@gmail.com>

"E.S.Quinlan" <eqpost@gmail.com>

Re: [Dar-al-Masnavi] Re: The lamp has become different

2011-11-30T23:17:00.000-03:00

Dear Ibrahim,
It's true that the Mathnawi doesn't show much appreciation of other traditions.
I think it's more useful for us to ask what would be Mevlana's position were he alive to day and if he had access to those other texts and contact with those other saints and mystics that you mention. His poetry has done much good in bringing believers together--and come together we must in these times full of fanaticism, fundamentalism, and materialism. The people who wrote about Rumi in his own time and afterwards, like Aflaki, were not on his level, so we can't take their view of him as definitive. I've attached my paper. Please note that it was written for an oral presentation to audience that knew next to nothing about Mevlana. Thank you for your reply. I would value any comments you have about the paper.

Salaam,
Sakinah

On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 5:46 PM, Ibrahim <daralmasnavi.org@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Sakinah,
Salâm,

Yes please attach your paper, if you can. For years, I wanted Mawlana
to be supportive of religious pluralism (thanks for giving a good
definition of the term), and presented such at inter-religious
gatherings. But, as I said, over time I could not see enough evidence
to support this view. My belief in it just gradually withered. I
didn't have a desire or motive that Mawlana not to be viewed as a
pluralist (such as based on a view that Islam is the only religion
that contains true teachings). Religious pluralism is very modern and
many people project it on to Mawlana as if he was as broad-minded as
we. But, unlike us, he did not have access to translations of the
Bible, the Bhagavad Gita, the Diamond Sutra, the Tao Te Ching, etc.
The derogatory references to Jews and Christians in his Divan-e Kabir
shows him to have held conventional Muslim views of people of other
religions. If he was so conventional in his views of Jews and
Christians, how could he be accepting of "Hindoos"? Tolerance of other
religions necessitates knowledge of the selfless detachment and
compassion of many Buddhists, the love of God cultivated by many
Bhakti Hindus, the service to the poor of many Christians, the
historical willingness of Jews to be martyred for the sake of pure
monotheism rather than be forced to worship an idol or king, the
pursuit of good thoughts and actions of many Zoroastrians, etc.
Mawlana's works do not show evidence of such appreciation. Yes,
Aflaki's hagiography describes some stories of Mawlana's kindness
toward Christians, but most of those stories end with the requisite
conversion to Islam.

Ibrahim

On Nov 30, 12:17 pm, "E.S.Quinlan" <eqp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Salaam, Ibrahim.
> My question was not about textual evidence; I'm famiilar with both sides
> of the issue. My question was about your motives i.e why you want Mevalana
> not to be perceived as a religious pluralist--which I take to mean someone
> who agrees that "all authentic spiritual ways lead to The Truth (Al-Haqq)."
> A few years ago I presented a paper on the nature of Rumi's ecumenism at a
> conference. If you are interested, I can send it as an attachment.
>
> Sincerely,
> Sakinah
>

> On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 12:34 AM, Ibrahim <daralmasnavi....@gmail.com>wrote:

>
>
>
> > For years I believed that he accepted it, mainly based on the verses
> > from the story of Moses and the Shepherd, in which God tells Moses:
> > "In the Hindoos the idiom of Hind (India) is praiseworthy; in the
> > Sindians the idiom of Sind is praiseworthy....I look not at the tongue
> > and the speech; I look at the inward (spirit) and the state (of
> > feeling)." [Masnavi II: 1757-59, trans. by Niccholson]. But later I
> > came to understand the first quoted verse differently. And after
> > studying Mawlana's works for years in Persian, I simply did not find
> > the evidence for it and concluded that he knew little about other
> > religions besides what he learned from a traditional Islamic
> > education. I found that most of the verses used in support of
> > religious pluralism are inauthentic (not in the earliest manuscripts).
> > As a result, I found myself having a minority viewpoint--in contrast
> > to the majority who strongly believe he accepted religious pluralism.
> > Now I'll ask you: what authentic verses from Mawlana's works can you
> > cite that support the view that he accepted religious pluralism?
>
> > Ibrahim
>
> > On Nov 29, 8:42 pm, "E.S.Quinlan" <eqp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Ask yourself *why* you want to believe that Rumi did not accept religious
> > > pluralism.
>
> > > On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 3:02 PM, Ibrahim <daralmasnavi....@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > K replied:
>
> > > > W'salam,
> > > > Thank you Sheikh Ibrahim, for your information, the problem of
> > > > religious pluralism in Malaysia and Indonesia becoming serious today
> > > > and many pluralists use Rumi's statement to justify their idea. I
> > > > checked the English translation and the Arabic one, I compared to the
> > > > Persian translation, as I know little bit, I found out that
> > > > Nicholson's rendition in the book (Rumi: Poet and Mystic) misleading,
> > > > especially his attempt to mix the last part of fasl 48 with the
> > > > beginning of fasl 49. Although his English translation can be still
> > > > reliable. A person who depend on the small book assuming his authority
> > > > in the literature will reasonably believe that Rumi did promote
> > > > religious pluralism. So, what I'm doing is to explain what exactly
> > > > Rumi said in his Mathnawi by giving the whole story and not a partial
> > > > rendition as Nicholson did. Now that you have confirmed that Maulana
> > > > has nothing to do with this misunderstanding, I'm glad and very
> > > > thankful for your kindness.
>
> > > > On Nov 1, 1:32 pm, Ibrahim <daralmasnavi....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > A brother from Malaysia recently wrote:
>
> > > > > Salam,
> > > > > Dear Sheikh Ibrahim,
> > > > > I would appreciate very much if you can show me the persian text of
> > > > > Nicholson's translation on The One true Light. (Nicholson, Rumi: Poet
> > > > > and Mystic, 1950, p. 166). Where he says: "The lamps are different
> > and
> > > > > the light is the same, it comes from the same source". (Nicholson
> > said
> > > > > it is in Mathnawi III: 1259) but when I refer to it I only get (as in
> > > > > your translation): 1259 (An) elephant was in a dark building.
>
> > > > > Dear K,
> > > > > Salâm,
>
> > > > > Nicholson's citation here is not correct; he should have written:
> > III:
> > > > > 1255. There is a problem with his rendition, which is that it is a
> > > > > version and not a literal translation (compare below). Rumi
> > > > > popularizers have used the version as a "Nicholson translation" in
> > > > > order to promote Mawlana as teaching the universality of religions,
> > as
> > > > > in a recent example on the Internet: "...the eternal yet timely
> > > > > message of Love, the essential Oneness of all faiths and of life
> > > > > itself, as taught by Jalaluddin Rumi and his dervish mentor, Shams of
> > > > > Tabriz."
>
> > > > > The rendition, "The lamps are different, but the light is the same"
> > > > > can be interpreted to mean that Mawlana taught that all religions
> > have
> > > > > an essential equality and validity because they are illuminated by
> > the
> > > > > same Light of Truth. But Mawlana did not say that the lamps (=
> > > > > religions) are different. He said that the lamp (meaning the outward
> > > > > form of the true religion since the time of Moses) has become
> > > > > different but the Light (of Revelation) remains the same; the lamp
> > and
> > > > > wick (which are also different) are illuminated by the same Light.
> > > > > Although the context has to do with the "Light of Moses" (the series
> > > > > of Divine revelations transmitted by the Prophets), there is also
> > here
> > > > > a reference to the Light verse in the Qur'an (24:35). And Mawlana did
> > > > > not imply the equality of those of different religions by saying,
> > "the
> > > > > disagreement between Moslem, Zoroastrian and Jew [Muslim-o Gabr-o
> > > > > Jahuud] depends on the standpoint"-- he said "between the (true)
> > > > > Believer [muu'min], Zoroastrian, and Jew".
>
> > > > > Interestingly, Nicholson did not himself interpret these verses as
> > > > > implying the universality of religions. He wrote: "Religions are
> > many,
> > > > > God is One. The intellect, groping in the dark, cannot form any
> > > > > conception of His nature. Only the clairvoyant eye of the mystic sees
> > > > > Him as He really is."
>
> > > > > On another topic, Mawlana uses the word "Hendow" in three ways: as a
> > > > > Muslim from India, as a slave, and symbolically as someone with a
> > dark
> > > > > nature (often contrasted with "Turk", someone with a bright nature).
> > > > > Here, the Hindus exhibiting the elephant are best understood as
> > Indian
> > > > > Muslims.
>
> > > > > Ibrahim
> > > > > ----------
>
> > > > > The lamps are different, but the Light is the same: it comes from
> > > > > Beyond.
> > > > > If thou keep looking at the lamp, thou art lost: for thence arises
> > > > > the appearance of numbers and plurality.
> > > > > Fix thy gaze upon the Light, and thou art delivered from the
> > > > > dualism inherent in the finite body.
> > > > > O thou who art the kernel of Existence, the disagreement between
> > > > > Moslem, Zoroastrian and Jew depends on the standpoint.
>
> > > > > Some Hindus brought an elephant…
> > > > > --Nicholson, "Rumi: Poet and Mystic," 1950, p. 166
>
> > > > > The mention of Moses serves for a mask, but the Light of Moses is
> > > > > thy actual concern, O good man.
> > > > > Moses and Pharaoh are in thy being: thou must seek these
> > two
> > > > > adversaries in thyself.
> > > > > The (process of) generation from Moses is (continuing) till
> > the
> > > > > Resurrection: the Light is not different, (though) the lamp has
> > become
> > > > > different.
> > > > > This earthenware lamp and this wick are different, but its
> > light
> > > > > is not different: it is from Yonder.
> > > > > [în sufâl-o în palîta dîgar-ast *** lêk nûr-ash nêst dîgar z-ân sar-
> > > > > ast]
> > > > > [این سُفال و این پَلیته دیگراست *** لیک نورش نیست دیگر زان سرست
> > > > > If thou keep looking at the glass (lantern), thou wilt be
> > > > lost,
> > > > > because from the glass arise the numbers of (the plurality inherent
> > > > > in) dualism;
> > > > > But if thou keep thy gaze (fixed) upon the Light, thou
> > wilt be
> > > > > delivered from dualism and the numbers (plurality) of the finite
> > body.
> > > > > From the place (object) of view, O (thou who art the)
> > kernel
> > > > of
> > > > > Existence, there arises the difference between the true believer and
> > > > > the Zoroastrian and the Jew.
> > > > > [az naZar-gâh-ast ay maghz-e wujûd *** ikhtilâf-e mû'min-o gabr-o
> > > > > jahûd]
> > > > > [از نظر گاهست ای مغزِ وجود *** اختکافِ مؤمن و گبر و جهود
> > > > > The disagreement as to the description and shape of the
> > elephant.
>
> > > > > The elephant was in a dark house: some Hindus had brought
> > it
> > > > for
> > > > > exhibition.
> > > > > --Masnavi Book 3: 1252-59, translated by Nicholson, 1930
>
> > > > --
> > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups
> > > > "Dar-al-Masnavi" group.
> > > > To post to this group, send email to dar-al-masnavi@googlegroups.com.
> > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
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>
> > --
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[Dar-al-Masnavi] Re: The lamp has become different

2011-11-30T21:46:00.000-03:00

Dear Sakinah,
Salâm,

Yes please attach your paper, if you can. For years, I wanted Mawlana
to be supportive of religious pluralism (thanks for giving a good
definition of the term), and presented such at inter-religious
gatherings. But, as I said, over time I could not see enough evidence
to support this view. My belief in it just gradually withered. I
didn't have a desire or motive that Mawlana not to be viewed as a
pluralist (such as based on a view that Islam is the only religion
that contains true teachings). Religious pluralism is very modern and
many people project it on to Mawlana as if he was as broad-minded as
we. But, unlike us, he did not have access to translations of the
Bible, the Bhagavad Gita, the Diamond Sutra, the Tao Te Ching, etc.
The derogatory references to Jews and Christians in his Divan-e Kabir
shows him to have held conventional Muslim views of people of other
religions. If he was so conventional in his views of Jews and
Christians, how could he be accepting of "Hindoos"? Tolerance of other
religions necessitates knowledge of the selfless detachment and
compassion of many Buddhists, the love of God cultivated by many
Bhakti Hindus, the service to the poor of many Christians, the
historical willingness of Jews to be martyred for the sake of pure
monotheism rather than be forced to worship an idol or king, the
pursuit of good thoughts and actions of many Zoroastrians, etc.
Mawlana's works do not show evidence of such appreciation. Yes,
Aflaki's hagiography describes some stories of Mawlana's kindness
toward Christians, but most of those stories end with the requisite
conversion to Islam.

Ibrahim

On Nov 30, 12:17 pm, "E.S.Quinlan" <eqp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Salaam, Ibrahim.
> My question was not about textual evidence; I'm famiilar with both sides
> of the issue. My question was about your motives i.e why you want Mevalana
> not to be perceived as a religious pluralist--which I take to mean someone
> who agrees that "all authentic spiritual ways lead to The Truth (Al-Haqq)."
> A few years ago I presented a paper on the nature of Rumi's ecumenism at a
> conference. If you are interested, I can send it as an attachment.
>
> Sincerely,
> Sakinah
>
> On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 12:34 AM, Ibrahim <daralmasnavi....@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>
>
> > For years I believed that he accepted it, mainly based on the verses
> > from the story of Moses and the Shepherd, in which God tells Moses:
> > "In the Hindoos the idiom of Hind (India) is praiseworthy; in the
> > Sindians the idiom of Sind is praiseworthy....I look not at the tongue
> > and the speech; I look at the inward (spirit) and the state (of
> > feeling)." [Masnavi II: 1757-59, trans. by Niccholson]. But later I
> > came to understand the first quoted verse differently. And after
> > studying Mawlana's works for years in Persian, I simply did not find
> > the evidence for it and concluded that he knew little about other
> > religions besides what he learned from a traditional Islamic
> > education. I found that most of the verses used in support of
> > religious pluralism are inauthentic (not in the earliest manuscripts).
> > As a result, I found myself having a minority viewpoint--in contrast
> > to the majority who strongly believe he accepted religious pluralism.
> > Now I'll ask you: what authentic verses from Mawlana's works can you
> > cite that support the view that he accepted religious pluralism?
>
> > Ibrahim
>
> > On Nov 29, 8:42 pm, "E.S.Quinlan" <eqp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Ask yourself *why* you want to believe that Rumi did not accept religious
> > > pluralism.
>
> > > On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 3:02 PM, Ibrahim <daralmasnavi....@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > K replied:
>
> > > > W'salam,
> > > > Thank you Sheikh Ibrahim, for your information, the problem of
> > > > religious pluralism in Malaysia and Indonesia becoming serious today
> > > > and many pluralists use Rumi's statement to justify their idea. I
> > > > checked the English translation and the Arabic one, I compared to the
> > > > Persian translation, as I know little bit, I found out that
> > > > Nicholson's rendition in the book (Rumi: Poet and Mystic) misleading,
> > > > especially his attempt to mix the last part of fasl 48 with the
> > > > beginning of fasl 49. Although his English translation can be still
> > > > reliable. A person who depend on the small book assuming his authority
> > > > in the literature will reasonably believe that Rumi did promote
> > > > religious pluralism. So, what I'm doing is to explain what exactly
> > > > Rumi said in his Mathnawi by giving the whole story and not a partial
> > > > rendition as Nicholson did. Now that you have confirmed that Maulana
> > > > has nothing to do with this misunderstanding, I'm glad and very
> > > > thankful for your kindness.
>
> > > > On Nov 1, 1:32 pm, Ibrahim <daralmasnavi....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > A brother from Malaysia recently wrote:
>
> > > > > Salam,
> > > > > Dear Sheikh Ibrahim,
> > > > > I would appreciate very much if you can show me the persian text of
> > > > > Nicholson's translation on The One true Light. (Nicholson, Rumi: Poet
> > > > > and Mystic, 1950, p. 166). Where he says: "The lamps are different
> > and
> > > > > the light is the same, it comes from the same source". (Nicholson
> > said
> > > > > it is in Mathnawi III: 1259) but when I refer to it I only get (as in
> > > > > your translation): 1259 (An) elephant was in a dark building.
>
> > > > > Dear K,
> > > > > Salâm,
>
> > > > > Nicholson's citation here is not correct; he should have written:
> > III:
> > > > > 1255. There is a problem with his rendition, which is that it is a
> > > > > version and not a literal translation (compare below). Rumi
> > > > > popularizers have used the version as a "Nicholson translation" in
> > > > > order to promote Mawlana as teaching the universality of religions,
> > as
> > > > > in a recent example on the Internet: "...the eternal yet timely
> > > > > message of Love, the essential Oneness of all faiths and of life
> > > > > itself, as taught by Jalaluddin Rumi and his dervish mentor, Shams of
> > > > > Tabriz."
>
> > > > > The rendition, "The lamps are different, but the light is the same"
> > > > > can be interpreted to mean that Mawlana taught that all religions
> > have
> > > > > an essential equality and validity because they are illuminated by
> > the
> > > > > same Light of Truth. But Mawlana did not say that the lamps (=
> > > > > religions) are different. He said that the lamp (meaning the outward
> > > > > form of the true religion since the time of Moses) has become
> > > > > different but the Light (of Revelation) remains the same; the lamp
> > and
> > > > > wick (which are also different) are illuminated by the same Light.
> > > > > Although the context has to do with the "Light of Moses" (the series
> > > > > of Divine revelations transmitted by the Prophets), there is also
> > here
> > > > > a reference to the Light verse in the Qur'an (24:35). And Mawlana did
> > > > > not imply the equality of those of different religions by saying,
> > "the
> > > > > disagreement between Moslem, Zoroastrian and Jew [Muslim-o Gabr-o
> > > > > Jahuud] depends on the standpoint"-- he said "between the (true)
> > > > > Believer [muu'min], Zoroastrian, and Jew".
>
> > > > > Interestingly, Nicholson did not himself interpret these verses as
> > > > > implying the universality of religions. He wrote: "Religions are
> > many,
> > > > > God is One. The intellect, groping in the dark, cannot form any
> > > > > conception of His nature. Only the clairvoyant eye of the mystic sees
> > > > > Him as He really is."
>
> > > > > On another topic, Mawlana uses the word "Hendow" in three ways: as a
> > > > > Muslim from India, as a slave, and symbolically as someone with a
> > dark
> > > > > nature (often contrasted with "Turk", someone with a bright nature).
> > > > > Here, the Hindus exhibiting the elephant are best understood as
> > Indian
> > > > > Muslims.
>
> > > > > Ibrahim
> > > > > ----------
>
> > > > > The lamps are different, but the Light is the same: it comes from
> > > > > Beyond.
> > > > > If thou keep looking at the lamp, thou art lost: for thence arises
> > > > > the appearance of numbers and plurality.
> > > > > Fix thy gaze upon the Light, and thou art delivered from the
> > > > > dualism inherent in the finite body.
> > > > > O thou who art the kernel of Existence, the disagreement between
> > > > > Moslem, Zoroastrian and Jew depends on the standpoint.
>
> > > > > Some Hindus brought an elephant…
> > > > > --Nicholson, "Rumi: Poet and Mystic," 1950, p. 166
>
> > > > > The mention of Moses serves for a mask, but the Light of Moses is
> > > > > thy actual concern, O good man.
> > > > > Moses and Pharaoh are in thy being: thou must seek these
> > two
> > > > > adversaries in thyself.
> > > > > The (process of) generation from Moses is (continuing) till
> > the
> > > > > Resurrection: the Light is not different, (though) the lamp has
> > become
> > > > > different.
> > > > > This earthenware lamp and this wick are different, but its
> > light
> > > > > is not different: it is from Yonder.
> > > > > [în sufâl-o în palîta dîgar-ast *** lêk nûr-ash nêst dîgar z-ân sar-
> > > > > ast]
> > > > > [این سُفال و این پَلیته دیگراست *** لیک نورش نیست دیگر زان سرست
> > > > > If thou keep looking at the glass (lantern), thou wilt be
> > > > lost,
> > > > > because from the glass arise the numbers of (the plurality inherent
> > > > > in) dualism;
> > > > > But if thou keep thy gaze (fixed) upon the Light, thou
> > wilt be
> > > > > delivered from dualism and the numbers (plurality) of the finite
> > body.
> > > > > From the place (object) of view, O (thou who art the)
> > kernel
> > > > of
> > > > > Existence, there arises the difference between the true believer and
> > > > > the Zoroastrian and the Jew.
> > > > > [az naZar-gâh-ast ay maghz-e wujûd *** ikhtilâf-e mû'min-o gabr-o
> > > > > jahûd]
> > > > > [از نظر گاهست ای مغزِ وجود *** اختکافِ مؤمن و گبر و جهود
> > > > > The disagreement as to the description and shape of the
> > elephant.
>
> > > > > The elephant was in a dark house: some Hindus had brought
> > it
> > > > for
> > > > > exhibition.
> > > > > --Masnavi Book 3: 1252-59, translated by Nicholson, 1930
>
> > > > --
> > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups
> > > > "Dar-al-Masnavi" group.
> > > > To post to this group, send email to dar-al-masnavi@googlegroups.com.
> > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > > > dar-al-masnavi+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > > > For more options, visit this group at
> > > >http://groups.google.com/group/dar-al-masnavi?hl=en.
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Dar-al-Masnavi" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to dar-al-masnavi@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > dar-al-masnavi+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > For more options, visit this group at
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Re: [Dar-al-Masnavi] Re: The lamp has become different

2011-11-30T17:19:00.000-03:00

Good comment, Ilias. It reminds me of Ghandi's statement: "God has no religion."

Sakinah

On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 6:47 AM, Iljas Baker <iljasbaker@gmail.com> wrote:

Salaam all,

I can't see Rumi "promoting" religious pluralism, but nor can I see him rejecting any value in other religions. One has to be careful to avoid seeing what one wants to see and in this case Ibrahim's remarks may be seen as a corrective. But equally one has to avoid seeing Islam (the religion) as more than it is.

Iljas

On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 2:34 PM, Ibrahim <daralmasnavi.org@gmail.com> wrote:

For years I believed that he accepted it, mainly based on the verses
from the story of Moses and the Shepherd, in which God tells Moses:
"In the Hindoos the idiom of Hind (India) is praiseworthy; in the
Sindians the idiom of Sind is praiseworthy....I look not at the tongue
and the speech; I look at the inward (spirit) and the state (of
feeling)." [Masnavi II: 1757-59, trans. by Niccholson]. But later I
came to understand the first quoted verse differently. And after
studying Mawlana's works for years in Persian, I simply did not find
the evidence for it and concluded that he knew little about other
religions besides what he learned from a traditional Islamic
education. I found that most of the verses used in support of
religious pluralism are inauthentic (not in the earliest manuscripts).
As a result, I found myself having a minority viewpoint--in contrast
to the majority who strongly believe he accepted religious pluralism.
Now I'll ask you: what authentic verses from Mawlana's works can you
cite that support the view that he accepted religious pluralism?

Ibrahim

On Nov 29, 8:42 pm, "E.S.Quinlan" <eqp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ask yourself *why* you want to believe that Rumi did not accept religious
> pluralism.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 3:02 PM, Ibrahim <daralmasnavi....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > K replied:
>
> > W'salam,
> > Thank you Sheikh Ibrahim, for your information, the problem of
> > religious pluralism in Malaysia and Indonesia becoming serious today
> > and many pluralists use Rumi's statement to justify their idea. I
> > checked the English translation and the Arabic one, I compared to the
> > Persian translation, as I know little bit, I found out that
> > Nicholson's rendition in the book (Rumi: Poet and Mystic) misleading,
> > especially his attempt to mix the last part of fasl 48 with the
> > beginning of fasl 49. Although his English translation can be still
> > reliable. A person who depend on the small book assuming his authority
> > in the literature will reasonably believe that Rumi did promote
> > religious pluralism. So, what I'm doing is to explain what exactly
> > Rumi said in his Mathnawi by giving the whole story and not a partial
> > rendition as Nicholson did. Now that you have confirmed that Maulana
> > has nothing to do with this misunderstanding, I'm glad and very
> > thankful for your kindness.
>
> > On Nov 1, 1:32 pm, Ibrahim <daralmasnavi....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > A brother from Malaysia recently wrote:
>
> > > Salam,
> > > Dear Sheikh Ibrahim,
> > > I would appreciate very much if you can show me the persian text of
> > > Nicholson's translation on The One true Light. (Nicholson, Rumi: Poet
> > > and Mystic, 1950, p. 166). Where he says: "The lamps are different and
> > > the light is the same, it comes from the same source". (Nicholson said
> > > it is in Mathnawi III: 1259) but when I refer to it I only get (as in
> > > your translation): 1259 (An) elephant was in a dark building.
>
> > > Dear K,
> > > Salâm,
>
> > > Nicholson's citation here is not correct; he should have written: III:
> > > 1255. There is a problem with his rendition, which is that it is a
> > > version and not a literal translation (compare below). Rumi
> > > popularizers have used the version as a "Nicholson translation" in
> > > order to promote Mawlana as teaching the universality of religions, as
> > > in a recent example on the Internet: "...the eternal yet timely
> > > message of Love, the essential Oneness of all faiths and of life
> > > itself, as taught by Jalaluddin Rumi and his dervish mentor, Shams of
> > > Tabriz."
>
> > > The rendition, "The lamps are different, but the light is the same"
> > > can be interpreted to mean that Mawlana taught that all religions have
> > > an essential equality and validity because they are illuminated by the
> > > same Light of Truth. But Mawlana did not say that the lamps (=
> > > religions) are different. He said that the lamp (meaning the outward
> > > form of the true religion since the time of Moses) has become
> > > different but the Light (of Revelation) remains the same; the lamp and
> > > wick (which are also different) are illuminated by the same Light.
> > > Although the context has to do with the "Light of Moses" (the series
> > > of Divine revelations transmitted by the Prophets), there is also here
> > > a reference to the Light verse in the Qur'an (24:35). And Mawlana did
> > > not imply the equality of those of different religions by saying, "the
> > > disagreement between Moslem, Zoroastrian and Jew [Muslim-o Gabr-o
> > > Jahuud] depends on the standpoint"-- he said "between the (true)
> > > Believer [muu'min], Zoroastrian, and Jew".
>
> > > Interestingly, Nicholson did not himself interpret these verses as
> > > implying the universality of religions. He wrote: "Religions are many,
> > > God is One. The intellect, groping in the dark, cannot form any
> > > conception of His nature. Only the clairvoyant eye of the mystic sees
> > > Him as He really is."
>
> > > On another topic, Mawlana uses the word "Hendow" in three ways: as a
> > > Muslim from India, as a slave, and symbolically as someone with a dark
> > > nature (often contrasted with "Turk", someone with a bright nature).
> > > Here, the Hindus exhibiting the elephant are best understood as Indian
> > > Muslims.
>
> > > Ibrahim
> > > ----------
>
> > > The lamps are different, but the Light is the same: it comes from
> > > Beyond.
> > > If thou keep looking at the lamp, thou art lost: for thence arises
> > > the appearance of numbers and plurality.
> > > Fix thy gaze upon the Light, and thou art delivered from the
> > > dualism inherent in the finite body.
> > > O thou who art the kernel of Existence, the disagreement between
> > > Moslem, Zoroastrian and Jew depends on the standpoint.
>
> > > Some Hindus brought an elephant…
> > > --Nicholson, "Rumi: Poet and Mystic," 1950, p. 166
>
> > > The mention of Moses serves for a mask, but the Light of Moses is
> > > thy actual concern, O good man.
> > > Moses and Pharaoh are in thy being: thou must seek these two
> > > adversaries in thyself.
> > > The (process of) generation from Moses is (continuing) till the
> > > Resurrection: the Light is not different, (though) the lamp has become
> > > different.
> > > This earthenware lamp and this wick are different, but its light
> > > is not different: it is from Yonder.
> > > [în sufâl-o în palîta dîgar-ast *** lêk nûr-ash nêst dîgar z-ân sar-
> > > ast]
> > > [این سُفال و این پَلیته دیگراست *** لیک نورش نیست دیگر زان سرست
> > > If thou keep looking at the glass (lantern), thou wilt be
> > lost,
> > > because from the glass arise the numbers of (the plurality inherent
> > > in) dualism;
> > > But if thou keep thy gaze (fixed) upon the Light, thou wilt be
> > > delivered from dualism and the numbers (plurality) of the finite body.
> > > From the place (object) of view, O (thou who art the) kernel
> > of
> > > Existence, there arises the difference between the true believer and
> > > the Zoroastrian and the Jew.
> > > [az naZar-gâh-ast ay maghz-e wujûd *** ikhtilâf-e mû'min-o gabr-o
> > > jahûd]
> > > [از نظر گاهست ای مغزِ وجود *** اختکافِ مؤمن و گبر و جهود
> > > The disagreement as to the description and shape of the elephant.
>
> > > The elephant was in a dark house: some Hindus had brought it
> > for
> > > exhibition.
> > > --Masnavi Book 3: 1252-59, translated by Nicholson, 1930
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Dar-al-Masnavi" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to dar-al-masnavi@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > dar-al-masnavi+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > For more options, visit this group at
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Re: [Dar-al-Masnavi] Re: The lamp has become different

2011-11-30T17:17:00.000-03:00

Salaam, Ibrahim.
My question was not about textual evidence; I'm famiilar with both sides of the issue. My question was about your motives i.e why you want Mevalana not to be perceived as a religious pluralist--which I take to mean someone who agrees that "all authentic spiritual ways lead to The Truth (Al-Haqq)." A few years ago I presented a paper on the nature of Rumi's ecumenism at a conference. If you are interested, I can send it as an attachment.

Sincerely,
Sakinah

On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 12:34 AM, Ibrahim <daralmasnavi.org@gmail.com> wrote:

For years I believed that he accepted it, mainly based on the verses
from the story of Moses and the Shepherd, in which God tells Moses:
"In the Hindoos the idiom of Hind (India) is praiseworthy; in the
Sindians the idiom of Sind is praiseworthy....I look not at the tongue
and the speech; I look at the inward (spirit) and the state (of
feeling)." [Masnavi II: 1757-59, trans. by Niccholson]. But later I
came to understand the first quoted verse differently. And after
studying Mawlana's works for years in Persian, I simply did not find
the evidence for it and concluded that he knew little about other
religions besides what he learned from a traditional Islamic
education. I found that most of the verses used in support of
religious pluralism are inauthentic (not in the earliest manuscripts).
As a result, I found myself having a minority viewpoint--in contrast
to the majority who strongly believe he accepted religious pluralism.
Now I'll ask you: what authentic verses from Mawlana's works can you
cite that support the view that he accepted religious pluralism?

Ibrahim

On Nov 29, 8:42 pm, "E.S.Quinlan" <eqp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ask yourself *why* you want to believe that Rumi did not accept religious
> pluralism.

>
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 3:02 PM, Ibrahim <daralmasnavi....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > K replied:
>
> > W'salam,
> > Thank you Sheikh Ibrahim, for your information, the problem of
> > religious pluralism in Malaysia and Indonesia becoming serious today
> > and many pluralists use Rumi's statement to justify their idea. I
> > checked the English translation and the Arabic one, I compared to the
> > Persian translation, as I know little bit, I found out that
> > Nicholson's rendition in the book (Rumi: Poet and Mystic) misleading,
> > especially his attempt to mix the last part of fasl 48 with the
> > beginning of fasl 49. Although his English translation can be still
> > reliable. A person who depend on the small book assuming his authority
> > in the literature will reasonably believe that Rumi did promote
> > religious pluralism. So, what I'm doing is to explain what exactly
> > Rumi said in his Mathnawi by giving the whole story and not a partial
> > rendition as Nicholson did. Now that you have confirmed that Maulana
> > has nothing to do with this misunderstanding, I'm glad and very
> > thankful for your kindness.
>
> > On Nov 1, 1:32 pm, Ibrahim <daralmasnavi....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > A brother from Malaysia recently wrote:
>
> > > Salam,
> > > Dear Sheikh Ibrahim,
> > > I would appreciate very much if you can show me the persian text of
> > > Nicholson's translation on The One true Light. (Nicholson, Rumi: Poet
> > > and Mystic, 1950, p. 166). Where he says: "The lamps are different and
> > > the light is the same, it comes from the same source". (Nicholson said
> > > it is in Mathnawi III: 1259) but when I refer to it I only get (as in
> > > your translation): 1259 (An) elephant was in a dark building.
>
> > > Dear K,
> > > Salâm,
>
> > > Nicholson's citation here is not correct; he should have written: III:
> > > 1255. There is a problem with his rendition, which is that it is a
> > > version and not a literal translation (compare below). Rumi
> > > popularizers have used the version as a "Nicholson translation" in
> > > order to promote Mawlana as teaching the universality of religions, as
> > > in a recent example on the Internet: "...the eternal yet timely
> > > message of Love, the essential Oneness of all faiths and of life
> > > itself, as taught by Jalaluddin Rumi and his dervish mentor, Shams of
> > > Tabriz."
>
> > > The rendition, "The lamps are different, but the light is the same"
> > > can be interpreted to mean that Mawlana taught that all religions have
> > > an essential equality and validity because they are illuminated by the
> > > same Light of Truth. But Mawlana did not say that the lamps (=
> > > religions) are different. He said that the lamp (meaning the outward
> > > form of the true religion since the time of Moses) has become
> > > different but the Light (of Revelation) remains the same; the lamp and
> > > wick (which are also different) are illuminated by the same Light.
> > > Although the context has to do with the "Light of Moses" (the series
> > > of Divine revelations transmitted by the Prophets), there is also here
> > > a reference to the Light verse in the Qur'an (24:35). And Mawlana did
> > > not imply the equality of those of different religions by saying, "the
> > > disagreement between Moslem, Zoroastrian and Jew [Muslim-o Gabr-o
> > > Jahuud] depends on the standpoint"-- he said "between the (true)
> > > Believer [muu'min], Zoroastrian, and Jew".
>
> > > Interestingly, Nicholson did not himself interpret these verses as
> > > implying the universality of religions. He wrote: "Religions are many,
> > > God is One. The intellect, groping in the dark, cannot form any
> > > conception of His nature. Only the clairvoyant eye of the mystic sees
> > > Him as He really is."
>
> > > On another topic, Mawlana uses the word "Hendow" in three ways: as a
> > > Muslim from India, as a slave, and symbolically as someone with a dark
> > > nature (often contrasted with "Turk", someone with a bright nature).
> > > Here, the Hindus exhibiting the elephant are best understood as Indian
> > > Muslims.
>
> > > Ibrahim
> > > ----------
>
> > > The lamps are different, but the Light is the same: it comes from
> > > Beyond.
> > > If thou keep looking at the lamp, thou art lost: for thence arises
> > > the appearance of numbers and plurality.
> > > Fix thy gaze upon the Light, and thou art delivered from the
> > > dualism inherent in the finite body.
> > > O thou who art the kernel of Existence, the disagreement between
> > > Moslem, Zoroastrian and Jew depends on the standpoint.
>
> > > Some Hindus brought an elephant…
> > > --Nicholson, "Rumi: Poet and Mystic," 1950, p. 166
>
> > > The mention of Moses serves for a mask, but the Light of Moses is
> > > thy actual concern, O good man.
> > > Moses and Pharaoh are in thy being: thou must seek these two
> > > adversaries in thyself.
> > > The (process of) generation from Moses is (continuing) till the
> > > Resurrection: the Light is not different, (though) the lamp has become
> > > different.
> > > This earthenware lamp and this wick are different, but its light
> > > is not different: it is from Yonder.
> > > [în sufâl-o în palîta dîgar-ast *** lêk nûr-ash nêst dîgar z-ân sar-
> > > ast]
> > > [این سُفال و این پَلیته دیگراست *** لیک نورش نیست دیگر زان سرست
> > > If thou keep looking at the glass (lantern), thou wilt be
> > lost,
> > > because from the glass arise the numbers of (the plurality inherent
> > > in) dualism;
> > > But if thou keep thy gaze (fixed) upon the Light, thou wilt be
> > > delivered from dualism and the numbers (plurality) of the finite body.
> > > From the place (object) of view, O (thou who art the) kernel
> > of
> > > Existence, there arises the difference between the true believer and
> > > the Zoroastrian and the Jew.
> > > [az naZar-gâh-ast ay maghz-e wujûd *** ikhtilâf-e mû'min-o gabr-o
> > > jahûd]
> > > [از نظر گاهست ای مغزِ وجود *** اختکافِ مؤمن و گبر و جهود
> > > The disagreement as to the description and shape of the elephant.
>
> > > The elephant was in a dark house: some Hindus had brought it
> > for
> > > exhibition.
> > > --Masnavi Book 3: 1252-59, translated by Nicholson, 1930
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Dar-al-Masnavi" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to dar-al-masnavi@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > dar-al-masnavi+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/dar-al-masnavi?hl=en.

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Re: [Dar-al-Masnavi] Re: The lamp has become different

2011-11-30T10:47:00.000-03:00

Salaam all,

I can't see Rumi "promoting" religious pluralism, but nor can I see him rejecting any value in other religions. One has to be careful to avoid seeing what one wants to see and in this case Ibrahim's remarks may be seen as a corrective. But equally one has to avoid seeing Islam (the religion) as more than it is.

Iljas

On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 2:34 PM, Ibrahim <daralmasnavi.org@gmail.com> wrote:

For years I believed that he accepted it, mainly based on the verses
from the story of Moses and the Shepherd, in which God tells Moses:
"In the Hindoos the idiom of Hind (India) is praiseworthy; in the
Sindians the idiom of Sind is praiseworthy....I look not at the tongue
and the speech; I look at the inward (spirit) and the state (of
feeling)." [Masnavi II: 1757-59, trans. by Niccholson]. But later I
came to understand the first quoted verse differently. And after
studying Mawlana's works for years in Persian, I simply did not find
the evidence for it and concluded that he knew little about other
religions besides what he learned from a traditional Islamic
education. I found that most of the verses used in support of
religious pluralism are inauthentic (not in the earliest manuscripts).
As a result, I found myself having a minority viewpoint--in contrast
to the majority who strongly believe he accepted religious pluralism.
Now I'll ask you: what authentic verses from Mawlana's works can you
cite that support the view that he accepted religious pluralism?

Ibrahim

On Nov 29, 8:42 pm, "E.S.Quinlan" <eqp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ask yourself *why* you want to believe that Rumi did not accept religious
> pluralism.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 3:02 PM, Ibrahim <daralmasnavi....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > K replied:
>
> > W'salam,
> > Thank you Sheikh Ibrahim, for your information, the problem of
> > religious pluralism in Malaysia and Indonesia becoming serious today
> > and many pluralists use Rumi's statement to justify their idea. I
> > checked the English translation and the Arabic one, I compared to the
> > Persian translation, as I know little bit, I found out that
> > Nicholson's rendition in the book (Rumi: Poet and Mystic) misleading,
> > especially his attempt to mix the last part of fasl 48 with the
> > beginning of fasl 49. Although his English translation can be still
> > reliable. A person who depend on the small book assuming his authority
> > in the literature will reasonably believe that Rumi did promote
> > religious pluralism. So, what I'm doing is to explain what exactly
> > Rumi said in his Mathnawi by giving the whole story and not a partial
> > rendition as Nicholson did. Now that you have confirmed that Maulana
> > has nothing to do with this misunderstanding, I'm glad and very
> > thankful for your kindness.
>
> > On Nov 1, 1:32 pm, Ibrahim <daralmasnavi....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > A brother from Malaysia recently wrote:
>
> > > Salam,
> > > Dear Sheikh Ibrahim,
> > > I would appreciate very much if you can show me the persian text of
> > > Nicholson's translation on The One true Light. (Nicholson, Rumi: Poet
> > > and Mystic, 1950, p. 166). Where he says: "The lamps are different and
> > > the light is the same, it comes from the same source". (Nicholson said
> > > it is in Mathnawi III: 1259) but when I refer to it I only get (as in
> > > your translation): 1259 (An) elephant was in a dark building.
>
> > > Dear K,
> > > Salâm,
>
> > > Nicholson's citation here is not correct; he should have written: III:
> > > 1255. There is a problem with his rendition, which is that it is a
> > > version and not a literal translation (compare below). Rumi
> > > popularizers have used the version as a "Nicholson translation" in
> > > order to promote Mawlana as teaching the universality of religions, as
> > > in a recent example on the Internet: "...the eternal yet timely
> > > message of Love, the essential Oneness of all faiths and of life
> > > itself, as taught by Jalaluddin Rumi and his dervish mentor, Shams of
> > > Tabriz."
>
> > > The rendition, "The lamps are different, but the light is the same"
> > > can be interpreted to mean that Mawlana taught that all religions have
> > > an essential equality and validity because they are illuminated by the
> > > same Light of Truth. But Mawlana did not say that the lamps (=
> > > religions) are different. He said that the lamp (meaning the outward
> > > form of the true religion since the time of Moses) has become
> > > different but the Light (of Revelation) remains the same; the lamp and
> > > wick (which are also different) are illuminated by the same Light.
> > > Although the context has to do with the "Light of Moses" (the series
> > > of Divine revelations transmitted by the Prophets), there is also here
> > > a reference to the Light verse in the Qur'an (24:35). And Mawlana did
> > > not imply the equality of those of different religions by saying, "the
> > > disagreement between Moslem, Zoroastrian and Jew [Muslim-o Gabr-o
> > > Jahuud] depends on the standpoint"-- he said "between the (true)
> > > Believer [muu'min], Zoroastrian, and Jew".
>
> > > Interestingly, Nicholson did not himself interpret these verses as
> > > implying the universality of religions. He wrote: "Religions are many,
> > > God is One. The intellect, groping in the dark, cannot form any
> > > conception of His nature. Only the clairvoyant eye of the mystic sees
> > > Him as He really is."
>
> > > On another topic, Mawlana uses the word "Hendow" in three ways: as a
> > > Muslim from India, as a slave, and symbolically as someone with a dark
> > > nature (often contrasted with "Turk", someone with a bright nature).
> > > Here, the Hindus exhibiting the elephant are best understood as Indian
> > > Muslims.
>
> > > Ibrahim
> > > ----------
>
> > > The lamps are different, but the Light is the same: it comes from
> > > Beyond.
> > > If thou keep looking at the lamp, thou art lost: for thence arises
> > > the appearance of numbers and plurality.
> > > Fix thy gaze upon the Light, and thou art delivered from the
> > > dualism inherent in the finite body.
> > > O thou who art the kernel of Existence, the disagreement between
> > > Moslem, Zoroastrian and Jew depends on the standpoint.
>
> > > Some Hindus brought an elephant…
> > > --Nicholson, "Rumi: Poet and Mystic," 1950, p. 166
>
> > > The mention of Moses serves for a mask, but the Light of Moses is
> > > thy actual concern, O good man.
> > > Moses and Pharaoh are in thy being: thou must seek these two
> > > adversaries in thyself.
> > > The (process of) generation from Moses is (continuing) till the
> > > Resurrection: the Light is not different, (though) the lamp has become
> > > different.
> > > This earthenware lamp and this wick are different, but its light
> > > is not different: it is from Yonder.
> > > [în sufâl-o în palîta dîgar-ast *** lêk nûr-ash nêst dîgar z-ân sar-
> > > ast]
> > > [این سُفال و این پَلیته دیگراست *** لیک نورش نیست دیگر زان سرست
> > > If thou keep looking at the glass (lantern), thou wilt be
> > lost,
> > > because from the glass arise the numbers of (the plurality inherent
> > > in) dualism;
> > > But if thou keep thy gaze (fixed) upon the Light, thou wilt be
> > > delivered from dualism and the numbers (plurality) of the finite body.
> > > From the place (object) of view, O (thou who art the) kernel
> > of
> > > Existence, there arises the difference between the true believer and
> > > the Zoroastrian and the Jew.
> > > [az naZar-gâh-ast ay maghz-e wujûd *** ikhtilâf-e mû'min-o gabr-o
> > > jahûd]
> > > [از نظر گاهست ای مغزِ وجود *** اختکافِ مؤمن و گبر و جهود
> > > The disagreement as to the description and shape of the elephant.
>
> > > The elephant was in a dark house: some Hindus had brought it
> > for
> > > exhibition.
> > > --Masnavi Book 3: 1252-59, translated by Nicholson, 1930
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Dar-al-Masnavi" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to dar-al-masnavi@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > dar-al-masnavi+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/dar-al-masnavi?hl=en.

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[Dar-al-Masnavi] Re: The lamp has become different

2011-11-30T04:34:00.000-03:00

For years I believed that he accepted it, mainly based on the verses
from the story of Moses and the Shepherd, in which God tells Moses:
"In the Hindoos the idiom of Hind (India) is praiseworthy; in the
Sindians the idiom of Sind is praiseworthy....I look not at the tongue
and the speech; I look at the inward (spirit) and the state (of
feeling)." [Masnavi II: 1757-59, trans. by Niccholson]. But later I
came to understand the first quoted verse differently. And after
studying Mawlana's works for years in Persian, I simply did not find
the evidence for it and concluded that he knew little about other
religions besides what he learned from a traditional Islamic
education. I found that most of the verses used in support of
religious pluralism are inauthentic (not in the earliest manuscripts).
As a result, I found myself having a minority viewpoint--in contrast
to the majority who strongly believe he accepted religious pluralism.
Now I'll ask you: what authentic verses from Mawlana's works can you
cite that support the view that he accepted religious pluralism?

Ibrahim

On Nov 29, 8:42 pm, "E.S.Quinlan" <eqp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ask yourself *why* you want to believe that Rumi did not accept religious
> pluralism.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 3:02 PM, Ibrahim <daralmasnavi....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > K replied:
>
> > W'salam,
> > Thank you Sheikh Ibrahim, for your information, the problem of
> > religious pluralism in Malaysia and Indonesia becoming serious today
> > and many pluralists use Rumi's statement to justify their idea. I
> > checked the English translation and the Arabic one, I compared to the
> > Persian translation, as I know little bit, I found out that
> > Nicholson's rendition in the book (Rumi: Poet and Mystic) misleading,
> > especially his attempt to mix the last part of fasl 48 with the
> > beginning of fasl 49. Although his English translation can be still
> > reliable. A person who depend on the small book assuming his authority
> > in the literature will reasonably believe that Rumi did promote
> > religious pluralism. So, what I'm doing is to explain what exactly
> > Rumi said in his Mathnawi by giving the whole story and not a partial
> > rendition as Nicholson did. Now that you have confirmed that Maulana
> > has nothing to do with this misunderstanding, I'm glad and very
> > thankful for your kindness.
>
> > On Nov 1, 1:32 pm, Ibrahim <daralmasnavi....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > A brother from Malaysia recently wrote:
>
> > > Salam,
> > > Dear Sheikh Ibrahim,
> > > I would appreciate very much if you can show me the persian text of
> > > Nicholson's translation on The One true Light. (Nicholson, Rumi: Poet
> > > and Mystic, 1950, p. 166). Where he says: "The lamps are different and
> > > the light is the same, it comes from the same source". (Nicholson said
> > > it is in Mathnawi III: 1259) but when I refer to it I only get (as in
> > > your translation): 1259 (An) elephant was in a dark building.
>
> > > Dear K,
> > > Salâm,
>
> > > Nicholson's citation here is not correct; he should have written: III:
> > > 1255. There is a problem with his rendition, which is that it is a
> > > version and not a literal translation (compare below). Rumi
> > > popularizers have used the version as a "Nicholson translation" in
> > > order to promote Mawlana as teaching the universality of religions, as
> > > in a recent example on the Internet: "...the eternal yet timely
> > > message of Love, the essential Oneness of all faiths and of life
> > > itself, as taught by Jalaluddin Rumi and his dervish mentor, Shams of
> > > Tabriz."
>
> > > The rendition, "The lamps are different, but the light is the same"
> > > can be interpreted to mean that Mawlana taught that all religions have
> > > an essential equality and validity because they are illuminated by the
> > > same Light of Truth. But Mawlana did not say that the lamps (=
> > > religions) are different. He said that the lamp (meaning the outward
> > > form of the true religion since the time of Moses) has become
> > > different but the Light (of Revelation) remains the same; the lamp and
> > > wick (which are also different) are illuminated by the same Light.
> > > Although the context has to do with the "Light of Moses" (the series
> > > of Divine revelations transmitted by the Prophets), there is also here
> > > a reference to the Light verse in the Qur'an (24:35). And Mawlana did
> > > not imply the equality of those of different religions by saying, "the
> > > disagreement between Moslem, Zoroastrian and Jew [Muslim-o Gabr-o
> > > Jahuud] depends on the standpoint"-- he said "between the (true)
> > > Believer [muu'min], Zoroastrian, and Jew".
>
> > > Interestingly, Nicholson did not himself interpret these verses as
> > > implying the universality of religions. He wrote: "Religions are many,
> > > God is One. The intellect, groping in the dark, cannot form any
> > > conception of His nature. Only the clairvoyant eye of the mystic sees
> > > Him as He really is."
>
> > > On another topic, Mawlana uses the word "Hendow" in three ways: as a
> > > Muslim from India, as a slave, and symbolically as someone with a dark
> > > nature (often contrasted with "Turk", someone with a bright nature).
> > > Here, the Hindus exhibiting the elephant are best understood as Indian
> > > Muslims.
>
> > > Ibrahim
> > > ----------
>
> > > The lamps are different, but the Light is the same: it comes from
> > > Beyond.
> > > If thou keep looking at the lamp, thou art lost: for thence arises
> > > the appearance of numbers and plurality.
> > > Fix thy gaze upon the Light, and thou art delivered from the
> > > dualism inherent in the finite body.
> > > O thou who art the kernel of Existence, the disagreement between
> > > Moslem, Zoroastrian and Jew depends on the standpoint.
>
> > > Some Hindus brought an elephant…
> > > --Nicholson, "Rumi: Poet and Mystic," 1950, p. 166
>
> > > The mention of Moses serves for a mask, but the Light of Moses is
> > > thy actual concern, O good man.
> > > Moses and Pharaoh are in thy being: thou must seek these two
> > > adversaries in thyself.
> > > The (process of) generation from Moses is (continuing) till the
> > > Resurrection: the Light is not different, (though) the lamp has become
> > > different.
> > > This earthenware lamp and this wick are different, but its light
> > > is not different: it is from Yonder.
> > > [în sufâl-o în palîta dîgar-ast *** lêk nûr-ash nêst dîgar z-ân sar-
> > > ast]
> > > [این سُفال و این پَلیته دیگراست *** لیک نورش نیست دیگر زان سرست
> > > If thou keep looking at the glass (lantern), thou wilt be
> > lost,
> > > because from the glass arise the numbers of (the plurality inherent
> > > in) dualism;
> > > But if thou keep thy gaze (fixed) upon the Light, thou wilt be
> > > delivered from dualism and the numbers (plurality) of the finite body.
> > > From the place (object) of view, O (thou who art the) kernel
> > of
> > > Existence, there arises the difference between the true believer and
> > > the Zoroastrian and the Jew.
> > > [az naZar-gâh-ast ay maghz-e wujûd *** ikhtilâf-e mû'min-o gabr-o
> > > jahûd]
> > > [از نظر گاهست ای مغزِ وجود *** اختکافِ مؤمن و گبر و جهود
> > > The disagreement as to the description and shape of the elephant.
>
> > > The elephant was in a dark house: some Hindus had brought it
> > for
> > > exhibition.
> > > --Masnavi Book 3: 1252-59, translated by Nicholson, 1930
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Dar-al-Masnavi" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to dar-al-masnavi@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > dar-al-masnavi+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/dar-al-masnavi?hl=en.

Re: [Dar-al-Masnavi] Re: The lamp has become different

2011-11-30T01:42:00.000-03:00

Ask yourself why you want to believe that Rumi did not accept religious pluralism.

On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 3:02 PM, Ibrahim <daralmasnavi.org@gmail.com> wrote:

K replied:

W'salam,
Thank you Sheikh Ibrahim, for your information, the problem of
religious pluralism in Malaysia and Indonesia becoming serious today
and many pluralists use Rumi's statement to justify their idea. I
checked the English translation and the Arabic one, I compared to the
Persian translation, as I know little bit, I found out that
Nicholson's rendition in the book (Rumi: Poet and Mystic) misleading,
especially his attempt to mix the last part of fasl 48 with the
beginning of fasl 49. Although his English translation can be still
reliable. A person who depend on the small book assuming his authority
in the literature will reasonably believe that Rumi did promote
religious pluralism. So, what I'm doing is to explain what exactly
Rumi said in his Mathnawi by giving the whole story and not a partial
rendition as Nicholson did. Now that you have confirmed that Maulana
has nothing to do with this misunderstanding, I'm glad and very
thankful for your kindness.

On Nov 1, 1:32 pm, Ibrahim <daralmasnavi....@gmail.com> wrote:
> A brother from Malaysia recently wrote:
>
> Salam,
> Dear Sheikh Ibrahim,
> I would appreciate very much if you can show me the persian text of
> Nicholson's translation on The One true Light. (Nicholson, Rumi: Poet
> and Mystic, 1950, p. 166). Where he says: "The lamps are different and
> the light is the same, it comes from the same source". (Nicholson said
> it is in Mathnawi III: 1259) but when I refer to it I only get (as in
> your translation): 1259 (An) elephant was in a dark building.
>
> Dear K,
> Salâm,
>
> Nicholson's citation here is not correct; he should have written: III:
> 1255. There is a problem with his rendition, which is that it is a
> version and not a literal translation (compare below). Rumi
> popularizers have used the version as a "Nicholson translation" in
> order to promote Mawlana as teaching the universality of religions, as
> in a recent example on the Internet: "...the eternal yet timely
> message of Love, the essential Oneness of all faiths and of life
> itself, as taught by Jalaluddin Rumi and his dervish mentor, Shams of
> Tabriz."
>
> The rendition, "The lamps are different, but the light is the same"
> can be interpreted to mean that Mawlana taught that all religions have
> an essential equality and validity because they are illuminated by the
> same Light of Truth. But Mawlana did not say that the lamps (=
> religions) are different. He said that the lamp (meaning the outward
> form of the true religion since the time of Moses) has become
> different but the Light (of Revelation) remains the same; the lamp and
> wick (which are also different) are illuminated by the same Light.
> Although the context has to do with the "Light of Moses" (the series
> of Divine revelations transmitted by the Prophets), there is also here
> a reference to the Light verse in the Qur'an (24:35). And Mawlana did
> not imply the equality of those of different religions by saying, "the
> disagreement between Moslem, Zoroastrian and Jew [Muslim-o Gabr-o
> Jahuud] depends on the standpoint"-- he said "between the (true)
> Believer [muu'min], Zoroastrian, and Jew".
>
> Interestingly, Nicholson did not himself interpret these verses as
> implying the universality of religions. He wrote: "Religions are many,
> God is One. The intellect, groping in the dark, cannot form any
> conception of His nature. Only the clairvoyant eye of the mystic sees
> Him as He really is."
>
> On another topic, Mawlana uses the word "Hendow" in three ways: as a
> Muslim from India, as a slave, and symbolically as someone with a dark
> nature (often contrasted with "Turk", someone with a bright nature).
> Here, the Hindus exhibiting the elephant are best understood as Indian
> Muslims.
>
> Ibrahim
> ----------
>
> The lamps are different, but the Light is the same: it comes from
> Beyond.
> If thou keep looking at the lamp, thou art lost: for thence arises
> the appearance of numbers and plurality.
> Fix thy gaze upon the Light, and thou art delivered from the
> dualism inherent in the finite body.
> O thou who art the kernel of Existence, the disagreement between
> Moslem, Zoroastrian and Jew depends on the standpoint.
>
> Some Hindus brought an elephant…
> --Nicholson, "Rumi: Poet and Mystic," 1950, p. 166
>
> The mention of Moses serves for a mask, but the Light of Moses is
> thy actual concern, O good man.
> Moses and Pharaoh are in thy being: thou must seek these two
> adversaries in thyself.
> The (process of) generation from Moses is (continuing) till the
> Resurrection: the Light is not different, (though) the lamp has become
> different.
> This earthenware lamp and this wick are different, but its light
> is not different: it is from Yonder.
> [în sufâl-o în palîta dîgar-ast *** lêk nûr-ash nêst dîgar z-ân sar-
> ast]
> [این سُفال و این پَلیته دیگراست *** لیک نورش نیست دیگر زان سرست
> If thou keep looking at the glass (lantern), thou wilt be lost,
> because from the glass arise the numbers of (the plurality inherent
> in) dualism;
> But if thou keep thy gaze (fixed) upon the Light, thou wilt be
> delivered from dualism and the numbers (plurality) of the finite body.
> From the place (object) of view, O (thou who art the) kernel of
> Existence, there arises the difference between the true believer and
> the Zoroastrian and the Jew.
> [az naZar-gâh-ast ay maghz-e wujûd *** ikhtilâf-e mû'min-o gabr-o
> jahûd]
> [از نظر گاهست ای مغزِ وجود *** اختکافِ مؤمن و گبر و جهود
> The disagreement as to the description and shape of the elephant.
>
> The elephant was in a dark house: some Hindus had brought it for
> exhibition.
> --Masnavi Book 3: 1252-59, translated by Nicholson, 1930

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[Dar-al-Masnavi] Re: The lamp has become different

2011-11-29T19:02:00.000-03:00

K replied:

W'salam,
Thank you Sheikh Ibrahim, for your information, the problem of
religious pluralism in Malaysia and Indonesia becoming serious today
and many pluralists use Rumi's statement to justify their idea. I
checked the English translation and the Arabic one, I compared to the
Persian translation, as I know little bit, I found out that
Nicholson's rendition in the book (Rumi: Poet and Mystic) misleading,
especially his attempt to mix the last part of fasl 48 with the
beginning of fasl 49. Although his English translation can be still
reliable. A person who depend on the small book assuming his authority
in the literature will reasonably believe that Rumi did promote
religious pluralism. So, what I'm doing is to explain what exactly
Rumi said in his Mathnawi by giving the whole story and not a partial
rendition as Nicholson did. Now that you have confirmed that Maulana
has nothing to do with this misunderstanding, I'm glad and very
thankful for your kindness.

On Nov 1, 1:32 pm, Ibrahim <daralmasnavi....@gmail.com> wrote:
> A brother from Malaysia recently wrote:
>
> Salam,
> Dear Sheikh Ibrahim,
> I would appreciate very much if you can show me the persian text of
> Nicholson's translation on The One true Light. (Nicholson, Rumi: Poet
> and Mystic, 1950, p. 166). Where he says: "The lamps are different and
> the light is the same, it comes from the same source". (Nicholson said
> it is in Mathnawi III: 1259) but when I refer to it I only get (as in
> your translation): 1259 (An) elephant was in a dark building.
>
> Dear K,
> Salâm,
>
> Nicholson's citation here is not correct; he should have written: III:
> 1255. There is a problem with his rendition, which is that it is a
> version and not a literal translation (compare below). Rumi
> popularizers have used the version as a "Nicholson translation" in
> order to promote Mawlana as teaching the universality of religions, as
> in a recent example on the Internet: "...the eternal yet timely
> message of Love, the essential Oneness of all faiths and of life
> itself, as taught by Jalaluddin Rumi and his dervish mentor, Shams of
> Tabriz."
>
> The rendition, "The lamps are different, but the light is the same"
> can be interpreted to mean that Mawlana taught that all religions have
> an essential equality and validity because they are illuminated by the
> same Light of Truth. But Mawlana did not say that the lamps (=
> religions) are different. He said that the lamp (meaning the outward
> form of the true religion since the time of Moses) has become
> different but the Light (of Revelation) remains the same; the lamp and
> wick (which are also different) are illuminated by the same Light.
> Although the context has to do with the "Light of Moses" (the series
> of Divine revelations transmitted by the Prophets), there is also here
> a reference to the Light verse in the Qur'an (24:35). And Mawlana did
> not imply the equality of those of different religions by saying, "the
> disagreement between Moslem, Zoroastrian and Jew [Muslim-o Gabr-o
> Jahuud] depends on the standpoint"-- he said "between the (true)
> Believer [muu'min], Zoroastrian, and Jew".
>
> Interestingly, Nicholson did not himself interpret these verses as
> implying the universality of religions. He wrote: "Religions are many,
> God is One. The intellect, groping in the dark, cannot form any
> conception of His nature. Only the clairvoyant eye of the mystic sees
> Him as He really is."
>
> On another topic, Mawlana uses the word "Hendow" in three ways: as a
> Muslim from India, as a slave, and symbolically as someone with a dark
> nature (often contrasted with "Turk", someone with a bright nature).
> Here, the Hindus exhibiting the elephant are best understood as Indian
> Muslims.
>
> Ibrahim
> ----------
>
> The lamps are different, but the Light is the same: it comes from
> Beyond.
> If thou keep looking at the lamp, thou art lost: for thence arises
> the appearance of numbers and plurality.
> Fix thy gaze upon the Light, and thou art delivered from the
> dualism inherent in the finite body.
> O thou who art the kernel of Existence, the disagreement between
> Moslem, Zoroastrian and Jew depends on the standpoint.
>
> Some Hindus brought an elephant…
> --Nicholson, "Rumi: Poet and Mystic," 1950, p. 166
>
> The mention of Moses serves for a mask, but the Light of Moses is
> thy actual concern, O good man.
> Moses and Pharaoh are in thy being: thou must seek these two
> adversaries in thyself.
> The (process of) generation from Moses is (continuing) till the
> Resurrection: the Light is not different, (though) the lamp has become
> different.
> This earthenware lamp and this wick are different, but its light
> is not different: it is from Yonder.
> [în sufâl-o în palîta dîgar-ast *** lêk nûr-ash nêst dîgar z-ân sar-
> ast]
> [این سُفال و این پَلیته دیگراست *** لیک نورش نیست دیگر زان سرست
> If thou keep looking at the glass (lantern), thou wilt be lost,
> because from the glass arise the numbers of (the plurality inherent
> in) dualism;
> But if thou keep thy gaze (fixed) upon the Light, thou wilt be
> delivered from dualism and the numbers (plurality) of the finite body.
> From the place (object) of view, O (thou who art the) kernel of
> Existence, there arises the difference between the true believer and
> the Zoroastrian and the Jew.
> [az naZar-gâh-ast ay maghz-e wujûd *** ikhtilâf-e mû'min-o gabr-o
> jahûd]
> [از نظر گاهست ای مغزِ وجود *** اختکافِ مؤمن و گبر و جهود
> The disagreement as to the description and shape of the elephant.
>
> The elephant was in a dark house: some Hindus had brought it for
> exhibition.
> --Masnavi Book 3: 1252-59, translated by Nicholson, 1930

[Dar-al-Masnavi] The lamp has become different

2011-11-01T18:32:00.000-03:00

A brother from Malaysia recently wrote:

Salam,
Dear Sheikh Ibrahim,
I would appreciate very much if you can show me the persian text of
Nicholson's translation on The One true Light. (Nicholson, Rumi: Poet
and Mystic, 1950, p. 166). Where he says: "The lamps are different and
the light is the same, it comes from the same source". (Nicholson said
it is in Mathnawi III: 1259) but when I refer to it I only get (as in
your translation): 1259 (An) elephant was in a dark building.

Dear K,
Salâm,

Nicholson's citation here is not correct; he should have written: III:
1255. There is a problem with his rendition, which is that it is a
version and not a literal translation (compare below). Rumi
popularizers have used the version as a "Nicholson translation" in
order to promote Mawlana as teaching the universality of religions, as
in a recent example on the Internet: "...the eternal yet timely
message of Love, the essential Oneness of all faiths and of life
itself, as taught by Jalaluddin Rumi and his dervish mentor, Shams of
Tabriz."

The rendition, "The lamps are different, but the light is the same"
can be interpreted to mean that Mawlana taught that all religions have
an essential equality and validity because they are illuminated by the
same Light of Truth. But Mawlana did not say that the lamps (=
religions) are different. He said that the lamp (meaning the outward
form of the true religion since the time of Moses) has become
different but the Light (of Revelation) remains the same; the lamp and
wick (which are also different) are illuminated by the same Light.
Although the context has to do with the "Light of Moses" (the series
of Divine revelations transmitted by the Prophets), there is also here
a reference to the Light verse in the Qur'an (24:35). And Mawlana did
not imply the equality of those of different religions by saying, "the
disagreement between Moslem, Zoroastrian and Jew [Muslim-o Gabr-o
Jahuud] depends on the standpoint"-- he said "between the (true)
Believer [muu'min], Zoroastrian, and Jew".

Interestingly, Nicholson did not himself interpret these verses as
implying the universality of religions. He wrote: "Religions are many,
God is One. The intellect, groping in the dark, cannot form any
conception of His nature. Only the clairvoyant eye of the mystic sees
Him as He really is."

On another topic, Mawlana uses the word "Hendow" in three ways: as a
Muslim from India, as a slave, and symbolically as someone with a dark
nature (often contrasted with "Turk", someone with a bright nature).
Here, the Hindus exhibiting the elephant are best understood as Indian
Muslims.

Ibrahim
----------

The lamps are different, but the Light is the same: it comes from
Beyond.
If thou keep looking at the lamp, thou art lost: for thence arises
the appearance of numbers and plurality.
Fix thy gaze upon the Light, and thou art delivered from the
dualism inherent in the finite body.
O thou who art the kernel of Existence, the disagreement between
Moslem, Zoroastrian and Jew depends on the standpoint.

Some Hindus brought an elephant…
--Nicholson, "Rumi: Poet and Mystic," 1950, p. 166

The mention of Moses serves for a mask, but the Light of Moses is
thy actual concern, O good man.
Moses and Pharaoh are in thy being: thou must seek these two
adversaries in thyself.
The (process of) generation from Moses is (continuing) till the
Resurrection: the Light is not different, (though) the lamp has become
different.
This earthenware lamp and this wick are different, but its light
is not different: it is from Yonder.
[în sufâl-o în palîta dîgar-ast *** lêk nûr-ash nêst dîgar z-ân sar-
ast]
[این سُفال و این پَلیته دیگراست *** لیک نورش نیست دیگر زان سرست
If thou keep looking at the glass (lantern), thou wilt be lost,
because from the glass arise the numbers of (the plurality inherent
in) dualism;
But if thou keep thy gaze (fixed) upon the Light, thou wilt be
delivered from dualism and the numbers (plurality) of the finite body.
From the place (object) of view, O (thou who art the) kernel of
Existence, there arises the difference between the true believer and
the Zoroastrian and the Jew.
[az naZar-gâh-ast ay maghz-e wujûd *** ikhtilâf-e mû'min-o gabr-o
jahûd]
[از نظر گاهست ای مغزِ وجود *** اختکافِ مؤمن و گبر و جهود
The disagreement as to the description and shape of the elephant.

The elephant was in a dark house: some Hindus had brought it for
exhibition.
--Masnavi Book 3: 1252-59, translated by Nicholson, 1930

[Dar-al-Masnavi] Re: Mawlana Rumi's funeral

2011-11-01T16:49:00.000-03:00

Dear Ata,
Salâm,

I agree with Sakinah--the best book on the life of Mawlana Rumi is the
one by Franklin Lewis, "Rumi, Past and Present, East and
West,"corrected edition, 2003 (paperback). I only presented such
details because Lewis did not write about the stories of the funeral
prayer for Mawlana. It seems to me that, although Aflaki used much of
the material in Sepahsalar's biography of Mawlana, he probably
preferred the version he chose (instead of Sepahsalar's version)
because it was more miraculous (the additional presence of the Prophet
[pbuh] and more angels dressed in blue robes).

Ibrahim

On Oct 1, 11:26 pm, SLING Designer Bags <slingb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Mr.Ibrahim,
> Thanx a lot for all the effort you take to answer my questions,thanx .
> wld love to meet you and just listen about mawlana rumi.
> do u know of any authentic book on the life of mawlana.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 2, 2011 at 10:52 AM, Ibrahim <daralmasnavi....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Dear Mr. Vahedna,
> > Salâm,
>
> > The discrepancy is that here are two versions of the event in the two
> > earliest Persian sources: Aflaakii, who was the disciple of Mawlana's
> > grandson (and who completed his book about 80 years after Mawlana's
> > death according to Prof. Franklin Lewis), and Sepahsaalaar, who
> > claimed to be the disciple of Mawlana (and who completed his book
> > about 40 years after Mawlana's death according to Lewis).
>
> > Aflaki wrote (chapt.3, section 581):
> > "Likewise, it is transmitted that Chalabii Hosaam al-Diin asked our
> > Khodaavandgaar: 'Who is to perform the prayers for you?' Mowlaanaa
> > replied: 'Shaykh Sadr al-Diin is the most worthy.' Indeed, all the
> > great among the religious scholars and the qaadiis desired to perform
> > the prayers. This was not granted to them but this favor was reserved
> > for that unique person."
> > --translated by John O'Kane, p. 406
>
> > And Aflaki wrote: (chapter 3, section 285):
> > "Likewise, the following is transmitted from the master of the
> > cultivated, Mowlaanaa Sharaf al-Diin of Kayseri--God have mercy on
> > him! 'when Shaykh Sadr al-Diin came forward to perform the prayer over
> > Mowlaanaa's corpse, suddenly he fetched up a sigh and became dazed for
> > a moment. After that, he performed the prayer and tears of blood
> > streamed from his eyes. Then he left. The group of prominent men
> > questioned him about what had happened. He said: 'When I came forward
> > to engage in the prayer, I saw that a row of spirit-beings
> > (ruuhaaniyaaan) from the Heavenly Assembly were present. The spirit of
> > the Messenger of God--God's blessings and peace be upon him--having
> > taken on form, was standing there. They were engaged in paying their
> > respects and praying on behalf of Mowlaanaa....'"
>
> > In contrast, Sepahsalar wrote (and here is a rough translation from p.
> > 116 ofhis biography of Mawlana, which has not been translated into
> > English):
> > "In regard to Shaykh Sadruddîn Qonawî--may God be merciful to him--
> > Mawlânâ Akmaluddîn Tabîb said: 'When the King of True Shaykhs, Hazrat-
> > e Mawlânâ passed away, Shaykh Sadruddîn, when he came forward in order
> > to do the (leading of the funeral) prayer, suddenly he uttered a sound
> > and went unconscious. Qâzî Sirâjuddin-may God be merciful to him--came
> > and led the prayer." Then follows Sadruddin's vision of rows of angels
> > and how he fainted from awe.
>
> > Per your second question about selections of Masnavi in calligraphy, I
> > can give you a link to some pages from a manuscript:
> >http://www.algert.com/Book/
>
> > Ibrahim
> > ------------
>
> > On Oct 1, 8:59 pm, Ibrahim <daralmasnavi....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Dear Mr.Ibrahim,
> > > I wanted to know who lead mawlana rumi's funeral prayers.At one place
> > > i read
> > > shaykh sadruddin led the funeral prayers who was a khalifa of ibn
> > > arabi,at
> > > another place i read that he went to lead the funeral prayers but felt
> > > unconscious and qadi sirajuddin rah led the funeral prayers .
> > > can you please clarify this.
> > > One more thing i wanted mawlana rumi famous selected couplets in
> > > persian
> > > calligraphy where online would i find it.
>
> > > --
> > > *
> > > *
> > > *
> > > *
> > > *Regards*
> > > *
> > > *
> > > *Ata Ashraf Vahedna*
> > > *
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Dar-al-Masnavi" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to dar-al-masnavi@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > dar-al-masnavi+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/dar-al-masnavi?hl=en.
>
> --
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *Regards*
> *
> *
> *Ata Ashraf Vahedna*
> *
> *
>
> DISCLAIMER:
>
> ===============================================================
>
> The preceding e-mail message (including any attachments) contains information
> that may be confidential, may be protected by the attorney- client or other
> applicable privileges or may constitute non-public information. It is
> intended to be conveyed only to the designated recipient(s) named above. If
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Re: [Dar-al-Masnavi] Mawlana Rumi's funeral

2011-10-02T13:27:00.000-03:00

Salaam,
As far as studies in English go, I've found Franklin Lewis's Rumi: Past and Present, East and West to be a reliable source for these types of questions.

Sakinah

On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 9:59 PM, Ibrahim <daralmasnavi.org@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Mr.Ibrahim,
I wanted to know who lead mawlana rumi's funeral prayers.At one place
i read
shaykh sadruddin led the funeral prayers who was a khalifa of ibn
arabi,at
another place i read that he went to lead the funeral prayers but felt
unconscious and qadi sirajuddin rah led the funeral prayers .
can you please clarify this.
One more thing i wanted mawlana rumi famous selected couplets in
persian
calligraphy where online would i find it.

--
*
*
*
*
*Regards*
*
*
*Ata Ashraf Vahedna*
*

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Dar-al-Masnavi" group.
To post to this group, send email to dar-al-masnavi@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to dar-al-masnavi+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/dar-al-masnavi?hl=en.

Re: [Dar-al-Masnavi] Re: Mawlana Rumi's funeral

2011-10-02T03:26:00.000-03:00

Dear Mr.Ibrahim,

Thanx a lot for all the effort you take to answer my questions,thanx .

wld love to meet you and just listen about mawlana rumi.

do u know of any authentic book on the life of mawlana.

On Sun, Oct 2, 2011 at 10:52 AM, Ibrahim <daralmasnavi.org@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Mr. Vahedna,
Salâm,

The discrepancy is that here are two versions of the event in the two
earliest Persian sources: Aflaakii, who was the disciple of Mawlana's
grandson (and who completed his book about 80 years after Mawlana's
death according to Prof. Franklin Lewis), and Sepahsaalaar, who
claimed to be the disciple of Mawlana (and who completed his book
about 40 years after Mawlana's death according to Lewis).

Aflaki wrote (chapt.3, section 581):
"Likewise, it is transmitted that Chalabii Hosaam al-Diin asked our
Khodaavandgaar: 'Who is to perform the prayers for you?' Mowlaanaa
replied: 'Shaykh Sadr al-Diin is the most worthy.' Indeed, all the
great among the religious scholars and the qaadiis desired to perform
the prayers. This was not granted to them but this favor was reserved
for that unique person."
--translated by John O'Kane, p. 406

And Aflaki wrote: (chapter 3, section 285):
"Likewise, the following is transmitted from the master of the
cultivated, Mowlaanaa Sharaf al-Diin of Kayseri--God have mercy on
him! 'when Shaykh Sadr al-Diin came forward to perform the prayer over
Mowlaanaa's corpse, suddenly he fetched up a sigh and became dazed for
a moment. After that, he performed the prayer and tears of blood
streamed from his eyes. Then he left. The group of prominent men
questioned him about what had happened. He said: 'When I came forward
to engage in the prayer, I saw that a row of spirit-beings
(ruuhaaniyaaan) from the Heavenly Assembly were present. The spirit of
the Messenger of God--God's blessings and peace be upon him--having
taken on form, was standing there. They were engaged in paying their
respects and praying on behalf of Mowlaanaa....'"

In contrast, Sepahsalar wrote (and here is a rough translation from p.
116 ofhis biography of Mawlana, which has not been translated into
English):
"In regard to Shaykh Sadruddîn Qonawî--may God be merciful to him--
Mawlânâ Akmaluddîn Tabîb said: 'When the King of True Shaykhs, Hazrat-
e Mawlânâ passed away, Shaykh Sadruddîn, when he came forward in order
to do the (leading of the funeral) prayer, suddenly he uttered a sound
and went unconscious. Qâzî Sirâjuddin-may God be merciful to him--came
and led the prayer." Then follows Sadruddin's vision of rows of angels
and how he fainted from awe.

Per your second question about selections of Masnavi in calligraphy, I
can give you a link to some pages from a manuscript:
http://www.algert.com/Book/

Ibrahim
------------

On Oct 1, 8:59 pm, Ibrahim <daralmasnavi....@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Mr.Ibrahim,
> I wanted to know who lead mawlana rumi's funeral prayers.At one place
> i read
> shaykh sadruddin led the funeral prayers who was a khalifa of ibn
> arabi,at
> another place i read that he went to lead the funeral prayers but felt
> unconscious and qadi sirajuddin rah led the funeral prayers .
> can you please clarify this.
> One more thing i wanted mawlana rumi famous selected couplets in
> persian
> calligraphy where online would i find it.
>
> --
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *Regards*
> *
> *
> *Ata Ashraf Vahedna*
> *

--
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To post to this group, send email to dar-al-masnavi@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to dar-al-masnavi+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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Regards

Ata Ashraf Vahedna

DISCLAIMER:

===============================================================

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[Dar-al-Masnavi] Re: Mawlana Rumi's funeral

2011-10-02T02:22:00.000-03:00

Dear Mr. Vahedna,
Salâm,

The discrepancy is that here are two versions of the event in the two
earliest Persian sources: Aflaakii, who was the disciple of Mawlana's
grandson (and who completed his book about 80 years after Mawlana's
death according to Prof. Franklin Lewis), and Sepahsaalaar, who
claimed to be the disciple of Mawlana (and who completed his book
about 40 years after Mawlana's death according to Lewis).

Aflaki wrote (chapt.3, section 581):
"Likewise, it is transmitted that Chalabii Hosaam al-Diin asked our
Khodaavandgaar: 'Who is to perform the prayers for you?' Mowlaanaa
replied: 'Shaykh Sadr al-Diin is the most worthy.' Indeed, all the
great among the religious scholars and the qaadiis desired to perform
the prayers. This was not granted to them but this favor was reserved
for that unique person."
--translated by John O'Kane, p. 406

And Aflaki wrote: (chapter 3, section 285):
"Likewise, the following is transmitted from the master of the
cultivated, Mowlaanaa Sharaf al-Diin of Kayseri--God have mercy on
him! 'when Shaykh Sadr al-Diin came forward to perform the prayer over
Mowlaanaa's corpse, suddenly he fetched up a sigh and became dazed for
a moment. After that, he performed the prayer and tears of blood
streamed from his eyes. Then he left. The group of prominent men
questioned him about what had happened. He said: 'When I came forward
to engage in the prayer, I saw that a row of spirit-beings
(ruuhaaniyaaan) from the Heavenly Assembly were present. The spirit of
the Messenger of God--God's blessings and peace be upon him--having
taken on form, was standing there. They were engaged in paying their
respects and praying on behalf of Mowlaanaa....'"

In contrast, Sepahsalar wrote (and here is a rough translation from p.
116 ofhis biography of Mawlana, which has not been translated into
English):
"In regard to Shaykh Sadruddîn Qonawî--may God be merciful to him--
Mawlânâ Akmaluddîn Tabîb said: 'When the King of True Shaykhs, Hazrat-
e Mawlânâ passed away, Shaykh Sadruddîn, when he came forward in order
to do the (leading of the funeral) prayer, suddenly he uttered a sound
and went unconscious. Qâzî Sirâjuddin-may God be merciful to him--came
and led the prayer." Then follows Sadruddin's vision of rows of angels
and how he fainted from awe.

Per your second question about selections of Masnavi in calligraphy, I
can give you a link to some pages from a manuscript:
http://www.algert.com/Book/

Ibrahim
------------

On Oct 1, 8:59 pm, Ibrahim <daralmasnavi....@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Mr.Ibrahim,
> I wanted to know who lead mawlana rumi's funeral prayers.At one place
> i read
> shaykh sadruddin led the funeral prayers who was a khalifa of ibn
> arabi,at
> another place i read that he went to lead the funeral prayers but felt
> unconscious and qadi sirajuddin rah led the funeral prayers .
> can you please clarify this.
> One more thing i wanted mawlana rumi famous selected couplets in
> persian
> calligraphy where online would i find it.
>
> --
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *Regards*
> *
> *
> *Ata Ashraf Vahedna*
> *

[Dar-al-Masnavi] Mawlana Rumi's funeral

2011-10-02T00:59:00.001-03:00

Dear Mr.Ibrahim,
I wanted to know who lead mawlana rumi's funeral prayers.At one place
i read
shaykh sadruddin led the funeral prayers who was a khalifa of ibn
arabi,at
another place i read that he went to lead the funeral prayers but felt
unconscious and qadi sirajuddin rah led the funeral prayers .
can you please clarify this.
One more thing i wanted mawlana rumi famous selected couplets in
persian
calligraphy where online would i find it.

--
*
*
*
*
*Regards*
*
*
*Ata Ashraf Vahedna*
*

[Dar-al-Masnavi] Boulder?

2011-09-14T19:09:00.000-03:00

Greeting,

I’m curious if any of the members live in Boulder, Colorado. If so, please respond.

[Dar-al-Masnavi] SHAHRAM NAZERI'S RECITATION OF QUATRAINS ATTRIBUTED TO MAWLANA RUMI

2011-09-05T14:41:00.000-03:00

http://dar-al-masnavi.org/quatrains-nazeri.html

[Dar-al-Masnavi] Website pages now clean

2011-08-07T23:24:00.000-04:00

Dear group members,

Was alerted by two people that their antivirus programs were blocking
the Dar-al-Masnavi.org website. One of them (thanks, Panevis)
determined that there was a problem with the homepage and the Masnavi
section page (and I found a third problem page later, the About the
Masnavi" page). I checked the online HTML and found malicious script
added on the three pages, which I cleansed by re-uploading them, and
both contacts later said that the site appeared clean. Using keyboard
shortcuts, I checked other neighboring pages and did not see any more
malicious script.

If anyone sees any suspicious changes on the website pages, please let
me know right away.

No one else reported any problems, and I never saw anything different.
The other person (thanks, Susan) wrote that her Norton antivirus
program stated that the intrusion was from "Blackhole Toolkit Website
5", which, I read, exploits homepage frame ads to redirect people to
another location which, in turn, redirects people to download a virus.
Thankfully, this does not appear to have happened with this website
attack.

Ibrahim
-----------

[Dar-al-Masnavi] "Song of the Reed" question

2011-07-20T02:24:00.000-04:00

Dear Barhtiyor,
 Thank you for your question about my
compilation:
http://dar-al-masnavi.org/reedsong.html
I added numbers to Nicholson's rhymed translation that correspond to
the verse numbers in his literal translation. But, in regard to the
couplet you asked about, I did not think it corresponded with any
verse number (perhaps slightly with verse 27?), so I added "A" and
"B".

Ibrahim
--------------

1. Hearken to this Reed forlorn,
2. Breathing, even since 'twas torn
2. From its rushy bed, a strain
3. Of impassioned love and pain.
7. "The secret of my song, though near, 7. None can see and none can
hear.
A. Oh for a friend to know the sign
B. And mingle all his soul with mine!
10. 'Tis the flame of Love that fired me, 10. 'Tis the wine of Love
inspired me.
13. Wouldst thou learn how lovers bleed,
35. Hearken, hearken to the Reed!"
--Translated by Reynold A. Nicholson. From "Rûmî: Poet and  Mystic
(1207-1273): Selections from His Writings"
--------------------------
Dear Ibrahim   In the chapter Translations and Versions of "The Song
of the Reed"  there is Rhymed Translation by Nicholson, where the
original text of  fll couplets are clear, but:   A. Oh for a friend to
know the sign  B. And mingle all his soul with mine!   the letters A
and B is not cclear, wouldn't tou tell what is the  original text?
Tnank you.  Regards, Barhtiyor

[Dar-al-Masnavi] Re: Masnavi citation

2011-07-16T02:23:00.000-04:00

Dear Ryan,

That is not in Masnavi, although there a number of references to the
yearning fish have for the Ocean after being cast upon dry land.

What you sent is probably a paraphrase, with someone's interpretation,
of a section from Rumi's "Seven Sessions," Sermon no. 7, translated by
William Chittick, "The Sufi Path of Love: The Spiritual Teachings of
Rumi," 1983, pp. 70-71.

"Like fish we say to the Ocean of Life, 'Why didst Thou send up waves
and throw us onto the driness of water and clay?.... The answer comes,
'O fish! True enough, a fish know the water's worth, loves the sea,
and clings to union with it. But his love is not of the same kind, so
hot and burning, with such self-abandonment, with such lamentation and
weeping of blood, and with such roasting of the liver, as the love of
that fish who has been thrown upon dry land by the waves and for a
long time struggles and tosses upon the hot earth and burning
sand...."

Ibrahim
--------------
On Jul 15, 11:49 am, Ryan Brizendine <r...@uchicago.edu> wrote:
> Dear friends,
>
> Does anyone happen to know where in the Masnavi Mawlana recounts the following?:
>
> "Rumi explains this game of love when he says that all of us used to be fish swimming in the ocean of Divine Unity, unaware of our distinction from the water. Then God threw us up on dry land, the realm of separation, longing, pain, and suffering. Only by tasting separation can we remember the joy of water and desire to return to it. Once we return, we will swim in the Ocean of Unity with full awareness of the joy of consummated love."
>
> Any leads will be sincerely appreciated.
> In peace,
> Ryan

[Dar-al-Masnavi] Masnavi citation

2011-07-15T14:49:00.000-04:00

Dear friends,

Does anyone happen to know where in the Masnavi Mawlana recounts the following?:

"Rumi explains this game of love when he says that all of us used to be fish swimming in the ocean of Divine Unity, unaware of our distinction from the water. Then God threw us up on dry land, the realm of separation, longing, pain, and suffering. Only by tasting separation can we remember the joy of water and desire to return to it. Once we return, we will swim in the Ocean of Unity with full awareness of the joy of consummated love."

Any leads will be sincerely appreciated.
In peace,
Ryan

[Dar-al-Masnavi] Re: Mawlana Rumi Review

2011-07-03T15:32:00.000-04:00

Dear Iljas,
Salâm,

Good question!

I realize that "ticket-paying audiences" may sound, to some, like the
"common run of humanity" (and you interpreted it as "most people"),
but many involved on the sufi path (as well as those on other
spiritual paths who are sensitive to spiritual energy or presence)
have bought tickets to attend Samâ`/Sema performances over the years.
I wouldn't have written that sentence if I hadn't heard, for over 30
years, from friends and acquaintances about the surprisingly strong
spiritual impact of Sema--especially by those who didn't expect to
experience such because of an assumption that Sema had degenerated too
much as a theatrical performance.

Ibrahim
-------------

On Jul 3, 12:25 am, Iljas Baker <iljasba...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Salaam Ibrahim,
>
> I liked your essay and thought it was very honest. You wrote:
>
> "Yet in spite of all the exploitation, commercialization, and
> folklorization of the Mawlawî Samâ`, it is not uncommon for spiritual
> blessing [baraka, Turkish: bereket] to be experienced by ticket-paying
> audiences, as well as a strong emotional impact."
>
> How do you know that it is common for ticket paying audiences to
> experience baraka? Because they say so? And can most people
> distinguish between baraka and "strong emotional impact"?
>
> Iljas
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 12:23 PM, Ibrahim <daralmasnavi....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > The second annual volume was recently published of the only academic
> > journal to be exclusively dedicated to the life, works, and heritage
> > of Mawlana. It is published on London but can be ordered from
> > countries outside of the UK via payment through PayPal.
>
> > An article of mine was published in the first volume a year ago (the
> > following webpage also contains a link to the Mawlana Rumi Review
> > website):
> >http://dar-al-masnavi.org/popularity-of-rumi.html
>
> > Ibrahim
> > --------------
>
> > *************************
> > Volume 1 (May 2010)
>
> > Editor's Note--L. Lewisohn
>
> > Love's Freedom: A Ghazal from Rumi's Divan-i Shams-i Tabrizi--trans.
> > F. Lewis
>
> > From Balkh to the Mediterranean: Everyman, Rabbi Eisik, son of Yekel
> > and Jalal al-Din Rumi's Mathnawi--J. Nozari
>
> > Mawlana Jalal al-Din Rumi of R. A. Nicholson--M. Simidchieva
>
> > Rumi's Metaphysics of the Heart--M. Rustom
>
> > Don't Sleep: A Ghazal from Rumi's Divan-i Shams-i Tabrizi--trans. P.
> > Losensky
>
> > The Castle of God is the Centre of the Dervish's Soul--A. Ambrosio
>
> > The Human Beloved and the Divine Beloved in the Poetry of Mawlana
> > Rumi--R. Farhadi
>
> > The Religion of Love: One Ghazal and Two Quatrains by Rumi--trans. L.
> > Lewisohn
>
> > The Popularity of Mawlana Rumi and the Mawlawi Tradition--I. Gamard
>
> > The Final Generation: A Tahmis-i Mutarraf by Ahmed Remzi Dede--R.
> > Grierson
>
> > The Honey Bee: A Quatrain by Rumi--trans. M. Zand
>
> > BOOK REVIEWS
>
> > Mevlana Celaleddin Rumi, Mesnevi-i Sherif Sherhi, trans. [into
> > Turkish] and Commentary by Avni Konuk, ed. Mustafa Tahrah, 13 vols.--
> > reviewed by A. Ambrosio
>
> > Seyed Ghahreman Safavi and Simon Weightman, Rumi's Mystical Design:
> > Reading the Mathnawi, Book One--reviewed by C. Barks
>
> > Shams-i Tabrizi, Rumi's Sun: The Teachings of Shams of Tabriz, trans.
> > Refik Algan and Camille Adams Helminski--reviewed by M. Bayat and A.
> > Jamnia
>
> > Rumi, The Quatrains of Rumi: Ruba'iyat-e Jalaluddin Muhammad Balkhi-
> > Rumi: Complete Translation with Persian Text, Islamic Mystical
> > Commentary, Manual of Terms, and Concordance, trans. Ibrahim Gamard
> > and Rawan Farhadi--reviewed by R. Darr
>
> > Dunya Mevlevihaneleri Fotograf Albumu/The Mevlevi Lodges of the World
> > Photo Album [with English translation], H. Karpus, F. Shimshek, A.
> > Kus, and I. Divarci--reviewed by R. Grierson
>
> > A. H. Zarrinkub, Step by Step up to Union with God: The Life, Thought
> > and Spiritual Journey of Jalal-al-Din Rumi [trans. into English of
> > Pillah-pillah ta mulaqat-i khuda]--reviewed by F. Jahanpour
>
> > Nevit O.Ergin and Will Johnson, The Forbidden Rumi: The Suppressed
> > Poems of Rumi on Love, Heresy, and Intoxication--reviewed by A. Jamnia
>
> > Aflaki, The Feats of the Knowers of God (Manaqeb al-'arefin), trans.
> > J. O'Kane--reviewed by L. Ridgeon
>
> > Baha al-Din Walad, The Drowned Book: Ecstatic and Earthly Reflections
> > of Bahauddin, the Father of Rumi, trans. C. Barks and J. Moyne--
> > reviewed by C. Shackle
>
> > A. J. Arberry, Mystical Poems of Rumi [new edition that combines vols.
> > 1 & 2, corrections made by F. Lewis]--reviewed by L. Stone
>
> > *********************
> > Volume 2 (May 2011)
>
> > The Uses of Adversity: A Ghazal from Rumi's Divan-i Shams-i Tabrizi--
> > trans. by F. Lewis
>
> > The Sword of La and the Fire of Love--W. Chittick
>
> > Society and Economy in the Teachings of Mawlana Jalal al-Din Rumi--A.
> > Esen
>
> > The Touchstone: Verses from Rumi's Mathnawi--trans. by L. Lewisohn
>
> > Rumi on Tolerance: A Philosophical Analysis--Mehdi Aminrazavi
>
> > Rumi and the Abyss of Longing--R. de Groot
>
> > Prayer's Synchronous Response: Verses from Rumi's Mathnawi--trans. by
> > J. Mojaddedi
>
> > 'We Believe in Your Prophet': Rumi, Palamas, and the Conversion of
> > Anatolia--R. Grierson
>
> > Homage to Professor Nicholson--B. Furuzanfar, trans. R. Sorkhabi
>
> > Depictions of the Islamization of the Mongols in the Manaqib
> > al-'arifin and the Foundation of the Mawlawi Community--J. Dechant
>
> > I am am I: A Ghazal from Rumi's Divan-i Shams-i Tabrizi--trans. P.
> > Losensky
>
> > A Synctatic Analysis of Metaphorical Phrases in R. A. Nicholson's
> > Translation of the Mathnawi--B. Mahmoodi-Bakhtiari ad R. Abbasi
>
> > BOOK REVIEWS
>
> > Alberto Fabio Ambrosio, Vie d'un derviche Tourneur, Doctrine et
> > rituels du soufisme au XVII-e siécle--reviewed by N. Tabbara
>
> > Alper Çeker (ed.), Istanbul Mevlevihanleri/Mawlawi Lodges of Istanbul
> > [with English translation]--reviewed by R. Grierson
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Dar-al-Masnavi" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to dar-al-masnavi@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to dar-al-masnavi+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/dar-al-masnavi?hl=en.

Re: [Dar-al-Masnavi] Mawlana Rumi Review

2011-07-03T03:25:00.000-04:00

Salaam Ibrahim,

I liked your essay and thought it was very honest. You wrote:

"Yet in spite of all the exploitation, commercialization, and
folklorization of the Mawlawî Samâ`, it is not uncommon for spiritual
blessing [baraka, Turkish: bereket] to be experienced by ticket-paying
audiences, as well as a strong emotional impact."

How do you know that it is common for ticket paying audiences to
experience baraka? Because they say so? And can most people
distinguish between baraka and "strong emotional impact"?

Iljas

On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 12:23 PM, Ibrahim <daralmasnavi.org@gmail.com> wrote:
> The second annual volume was recently published of the only academic
> journal to be exclusively dedicated to the life, works, and heritage
> of Mawlana. It is published on London but can be ordered from
> countries outside of the UK via payment through PayPal.
>
> An article of mine was published in the first volume a year ago (the
> following webpage also contains a link to the Mawlana Rumi Review
> website):
> http://dar-al-masnavi.org/popularity-of-rumi.html
>
> Ibrahim
> --------------
>
>
> *************************
> Volume 1 (May 2010)
>
> Editor's Note--L. Lewisohn
>
> Love's Freedom: A Ghazal from Rumi's Divan-i Shams-i Tabrizi--trans.
> F. Lewis
>
> From Balkh to the Mediterranean: Everyman, Rabbi Eisik, son of Yekel
> and Jalal al-Din Rumi's Mathnawi--J. Nozari
>
> Mawlana Jalal al-Din Rumi of R. A. Nicholson--M. Simidchieva
>
> Rumi's Metaphysics of the Heart--M. Rustom
>
> Don't Sleep: A Ghazal from Rumi's Divan-i Shams-i Tabrizi--trans. P.
> Losensky
>
> The Castle of God is the Centre of the Dervish's Soul--A. Ambrosio
>
> The Human Beloved and the Divine Beloved in the Poetry of Mawlana
> Rumi--R. Farhadi
>
> The Religion of Love: One Ghazal and Two Quatrains by Rumi--trans. L.
> Lewisohn
>
> The Popularity of Mawlana Rumi and the Mawlawi Tradition--I. Gamard
>
> The Final Generation: A Tahmis-i Mutarraf by Ahmed Remzi Dede--R.
> Grierson
>
> The Honey Bee: A Quatrain by Rumi--trans. M. Zand
>
> BOOK REVIEWS
>
> Mevlana Celaleddin Rumi, Mesnevi-i Sherif Sherhi, trans. [into
> Turkish] and Commentary by Avni Konuk, ed. Mustafa Tahrah, 13 vols.--
> reviewed by A. Ambrosio
>
> Seyed Ghahreman Safavi and Simon Weightman, Rumi's Mystical Design:
> Reading the Mathnawi, Book One--reviewed by C. Barks
>
> Shams-i Tabrizi, Rumi's Sun: The Teachings of Shams of Tabriz, trans.
> Refik Algan and Camille Adams Helminski--reviewed by M. Bayat and A.
> Jamnia
>
> Rumi, The Quatrains of Rumi: Ruba'iyat-e Jalaluddin Muhammad Balkhi-
> Rumi: Complete Translation with Persian Text, Islamic Mystical
> Commentary, Manual of Terms, and Concordance, trans. Ibrahim Gamard
> and Rawan Farhadi--reviewed by R. Darr
>
> Dunya Mevlevihaneleri Fotograf Albumu/The Mevlevi Lodges of the World
> Photo Album [with English translation], H. Karpus, F. Shimshek, A.
> Kus, and I. Divarci--reviewed by R. Grierson
>
> A. H. Zarrinkub, Step by Step up to Union with God: The Life, Thought
> and Spiritual Journey of Jalal-al-Din Rumi [trans. into English of
> Pillah-pillah ta mulaqat-i khuda]--reviewed by F. Jahanpour
>
> Nevit O.Ergin and Will Johnson, The Forbidden Rumi: The Suppressed
> Poems of Rumi on Love, Heresy, and Intoxication--reviewed by A. Jamnia
>
> Aflaki, The Feats of the Knowers of God (Manaqeb al-'arefin), trans.
> J. O'Kane--reviewed by L. Ridgeon
>
> Baha al-Din Walad, The Drowned Book: Ecstatic and Earthly Reflections
> of Bahauddin, the Father of Rumi, trans. C. Barks and J. Moyne--
> reviewed by C. Shackle
>
> A. J. Arberry, Mystical Poems of Rumi [new edition that combines vols.
> 1 & 2, corrections made by F. Lewis]--reviewed by L. Stone
>
>
> *********************
> Volume 2 (May 2011)
>
> The Uses of Adversity: A Ghazal from Rumi's Divan-i Shams-i Tabrizi--
> trans. by F. Lewis
>
> The Sword of La and the Fire of Love--W. Chittick
>
> Society and Economy in the Teachings of Mawlana Jalal al-Din Rumi--A.
> Esen
>
> The Touchstone: Verses from Rumi's Mathnawi--trans. by L. Lewisohn
>
> Rumi on Tolerance: A Philosophical Analysis--Mehdi Aminrazavi
>
> Rumi and the Abyss of Longing--R. de Groot
>
> Prayer's Synchronous Response: Verses from Rumi's Mathnawi--trans. by
> J. Mojaddedi
>
> 'We Believe in Your Prophet': Rumi, Palamas, and the Conversion of
> Anatolia--R. Grierson
>
> Homage to Professor Nicholson--B. Furuzanfar, trans. R. Sorkhabi
>
> Depictions of the Islamization of the Mongols in the Manaqib
> al-'arifin and the Foundation of the Mawlawi Community--J. Dechant
>
> I am am I: A Ghazal from Rumi's Divan-i Shams-i Tabrizi--trans. P.
> Losensky
>
> A Synctatic Analysis of Metaphorical Phrases in R. A. Nicholson's
> Translation of the Mathnawi--B. Mahmoodi-Bakhtiari ad R. Abbasi
>
> BOOK REVIEWS
>
> Alberto Fabio Ambrosio, Vie d'un derviche Tourneur, Doctrine et
> rituels du soufisme au XVII-e siécle--reviewed by N. Tabbara
>
> Alper Çeker (ed.), Istanbul Mevlevihanleri/Mawlawi Lodges of Istanbul
> [with English translation]--reviewed by R. Grierson
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Dar-al-Masnavi" group.
> To post to this group, send email to dar-al-masnavi@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to dar-al-masnavi+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/dar-al-masnavi?hl=en.
>
>

[Dar-al-Masnavi] Mawlana Rumi Review

2011-07-03T01:23:00.000-04:00

The second annual volume was recently published of the only academic
journal to be exclusively dedicated to the life, works, and heritage
of Mawlana. It is published on London but can be ordered from
countries outside of the UK via payment through PayPal.

An article of mine was published in the first volume a year ago (the
following webpage also contains a link to the Mawlana Rumi Review
website):
http://dar-al-masnavi.org/popularity-of-rumi.html

Ibrahim
--------------

*************************
Volume 1 (May 2010)

Editor's Note--L. Lewisohn

Love's Freedom: A Ghazal from Rumi's Divan-i Shams-i Tabrizi--trans.
F. Lewis

From Balkh to the Mediterranean: Everyman, Rabbi Eisik, son of Yekel
and Jalal al-Din Rumi's Mathnawi--J. Nozari

Mawlana Jalal al-Din Rumi of R. A. Nicholson--M. Simidchieva

Rumi's Metaphysics of the Heart--M. Rustom

Don't Sleep: A Ghazal from Rumi's Divan-i Shams-i Tabrizi--trans. P.
Losensky

The Castle of God is the Centre of the Dervish's Soul--A. Ambrosio

The Human Beloved and the Divine Beloved in the Poetry of Mawlana
Rumi--R. Farhadi

The Religion of Love: One Ghazal and Two Quatrains by Rumi--trans. L.
Lewisohn

The Popularity of Mawlana Rumi and the Mawlawi Tradition--I. Gamard

The Final Generation: A Tahmis-i Mutarraf by Ahmed Remzi Dede--R.
Grierson

The Honey Bee: A Quatrain by Rumi--trans. M. Zand

BOOK REVIEWS

Mevlana Celaleddin Rumi, Mesnevi-i Sherif Sherhi, trans. [into
Turkish] and Commentary by Avni Konuk, ed. Mustafa Tahrah, 13 vols.--
reviewed by A. Ambrosio

Seyed Ghahreman Safavi and Simon Weightman, Rumi's Mystical Design:
Reading the Mathnawi, Book One--reviewed by C. Barks

Shams-i Tabrizi, Rumi's Sun: The Teachings of Shams of Tabriz, trans.
Refik Algan and Camille Adams Helminski--reviewed by M. Bayat and A.
Jamnia

Rumi, The Quatrains of Rumi: Ruba'iyat-e Jalaluddin Muhammad Balkhi-
Rumi: Complete Translation with Persian Text, Islamic Mystical
Commentary, Manual of Terms, and Concordance, trans. Ibrahim Gamard
and Rawan Farhadi--reviewed by R. Darr

Dunya Mevlevihaneleri Fotograf Albumu/The Mevlevi Lodges of the World
Photo Album [with English translation], H. Karpus, F. Shimshek, A.
Kus, and I. Divarci--reviewed by R. Grierson

A. H. Zarrinkub, Step by Step up to Union with God: The Life, Thought
and Spiritual Journey of Jalal-al-Din Rumi [trans. into English of
Pillah-pillah ta mulaqat-i khuda]--reviewed by F. Jahanpour

Nevit O.Ergin and Will Johnson, The Forbidden Rumi: The Suppressed
Poems of Rumi on Love, Heresy, and Intoxication--reviewed by A. Jamnia

Aflaki, The Feats of the Knowers of God (Manaqeb al-'arefin), trans.
J. O'Kane--reviewed by L. Ridgeon

Baha al-Din Walad, The Drowned Book: Ecstatic and Earthly Reflections
of Bahauddin, the Father of Rumi, trans. C. Barks and J. Moyne--
reviewed by C. Shackle

A. J. Arberry, Mystical Poems of Rumi [new edition that combines vols.
1 & 2, corrections made by F. Lewis]--reviewed by L. Stone

*********************
Volume 2 (May 2011)

The Uses of Adversity: A Ghazal from Rumi's Divan-i Shams-i Tabrizi--
trans. by F. Lewis

The Sword of La and the Fire of Love--W. Chittick

Society and Economy in the Teachings of Mawlana Jalal al-Din Rumi--A.
Esen

The Touchstone: Verses from Rumi's Mathnawi--trans. by L. Lewisohn

Rumi on Tolerance: A Philosophical Analysis--Mehdi Aminrazavi

Rumi and the Abyss of Longing--R. de Groot

Prayer's Synchronous Response: Verses from Rumi's Mathnawi--trans. by
J. Mojaddedi

'We Believe in Your Prophet': Rumi, Palamas, and the Conversion of
Anatolia--R. Grierson

Homage to Professor Nicholson--B. Furuzanfar, trans. R. Sorkhabi

Depictions of the Islamization of the Mongols in the Manaqib
al-'arifin and the Foundation of the Mawlawi Community--J. Dechant

I am am I: A Ghazal from Rumi's Divan-i Shams-i Tabrizi--trans. P.
Losensky

A Synctatic Analysis of Metaphorical Phrases in R. A. Nicholson's
Translation of the Mathnawi--B. Mahmoodi-Bakhtiari ad R. Abbasi

BOOK REVIEWS

Alberto Fabio Ambrosio, Vie d'un derviche Tourneur, Doctrine et
rituels du soufisme au XVII-e siécle--reviewed by N. Tabbara

Alper Çeker (ed.), Istanbul Mevlevihanleri/Mawlawi Lodges of Istanbul
[with English translation]--reviewed by R. Grierson

[Dar-al-Masnavi] Apparently Irreligious Verses in the Works of Mawlana Rumi

2011-05-26T02:08:00.000-04:00

http://dar-al-masnavi.org/apparently-irreligious-verses.html

[Dar-al-Masnavi] Concordance of the Discourses of Shams-e Tabrizi

2011-05-14T17:13:00.001-04:00

http://dar-al-masnavi.org/shams-discourses-concord.html

[Dar-al-Masnavi] Re: Is is true the reference to Ahlul Bayt?

2011-04-29T02:57:00.000-03:00

Dear Nureddin,
Wa `alaykuma 's-salâm,

No, Mawlana Rumi did not write a poem that contains the names of the
twelve Imams of Shi`ism. It is well-known that Mawlana was a Sunni
Muslim (who followed the Hanafi school of religious law).

Does this mean that the websites you mention are entirely wrong?
Actually, it is quite possible that there may be an edition of
Mawlana's Divan that contains such a ghazal. But that is not evidence
at all that it is one of Mawlana's poem, because over the centuries
many poems and verses have been added to editions of his works. These
are called spurious, and spurious ghazals that end with the name of
Shams-e Tabrizi are also forgeries.

What is important is whether a questionable poem is in the earliest
manuscripts of Mawlana's works or not--and if not, then it is not
authentic.

Here is an example of a spurious quatrain that appeared in an edition
of Mawlana's quatrains, published in Isfahan, Iran in 1941, and
subsequently translated into English by an Iranian American and
included in a book of Mawlana's quatrains:

In the circle of existence (only) `Ali is present [dar dâ'îra-ye wujûd
mawjûd-e `alî-st]. In this world and the next, the only aim and goal
is `Ali. If the house of (your) belief has not been destroyed, I would
tell you openly, the (only) object of worship is `Ali [ke ma`bûd `alî-
st].

But this is not one of Mawlana's authentic quatrains. It is completely
different from his authentic poems, and it expresses the radical
belief in the divinity of Hazrat-e `Ali.

Ibrahim
-------------

On Apr 25, 2:17 pm, Nureddin <nureddinosma...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Bismillahi Rahmani Rahim
>
> As salam alaikum
>
> I found some websites mentioning that Maulana Jalaluddin Rumi (qs)
> mentioned the names of the Twelve Imams in one of his writings, namely
> the Diwan e Shams.
>
> Is the reference correct? Is the text available on the web?
>
> Thanks
>
> Nureddin

[Dar-al-Masnavi] Re: Master Rumi's Arabic Writings

2011-04-29T01:51:00.000-03:00

Since I wrote the above, I visited my collaborator, Afghan scholar Dr.
Farhadi, in his home (here in California) and was happily surprised
when he showed me how he has photocopied all of Mawlana's Arabic
ghazals and ruba`is and pasted them together in book form. He said
that he's adding the sections of Mawlana's Fihi ma fihi ("Discourses")
that are in Arabic. And he said he's looking for a publisher.

Ibrahim
----------

On Mar 5, 1:01 pm, Ibrahim <daralmasnavi....@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Basil,
> Wa `alaykuma 's-salâm,
>
> As far as I know, Mawlana's Arabic poetry and prose have never been
> published separately by any scholar, and this is much needed. His
> Arabic ghazals (90) and quatrains (13) are scattered throughout his
> Divan, and often left out of editions of the Divan (because Persian
> readers usually cannot understand them); if they are included,
> diacritical marks are usually absent, or imperfect. Sometimes the
> precise poetic meter must be determined in order to know how many
> syllables a particular Arabic word has.http://dar-al-masnavi.org/about-arabic-poetry.html
>
> Since there is no published collection, these poems and verses are on
> the Internet only in (often imperfect) Persian texts of Masnavi and
> Divan, and therefore hard to locate.
>
> Ibrahim
> -----------
>
> On Mar 1, 12:12 am, Basil Samara <ibnha...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Dear Ibrahim:
> > Assalamu Alaykum!
>
> > I am anxious to reread Mawlana's writings in Arabic. I Know they are
> > not many but can you please tell me where I can get an electronic
> > copy of them. Thank you most sincerely.
>
> > Basil Samara

[Dar-al-Masnavi] Is is true the reference to Ahlul Bayt?

2011-04-25T18:17:00.000-03:00

Bismillahi Rahmani Rahim

As salam alaikum

I found some websites mentioning that Maulana Jalaluddin Rumi (qs)
mentioned the names of the Twelve Imams in one of his writings, namely
the Diwan e Shams.

Is the reference correct? Is the text available on the web?

Thanks

Nureddin

[Dar-al-Masnavi] Re: Master Rumi's Arabic Writings

2011-03-05T17:01:00.000-03:00

Dear Basil,
Wa `alaykuma 's-salâm,

As far as I know, Mawlana's Arabic poetry and prose have never been
published separately by any scholar, and this is much needed. His
Arabic ghazals (90) and quatrains (13) are scattered throughout his
Divan, and often left out of editions of the Divan (because Persian
readers usually cannot understand them); if they are included,
diacritical marks are usually absent, or imperfect. Sometimes the
precise poetic meter must be determined in order to know how many
syllables a particular Arabic word has.
http://dar-al-masnavi.org/about-arabic-poetry.html

Since there is no published collection, these poems and verses are on
the Internet only in (often imperfect) Persian texts of Masnavi and
Divan, and therefore hard to locate.

Ibrahim
-----------

On Mar 1, 12:12 am, Basil Samara <ibnha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Ibrahim:
> Assalamu Alaykum!
>
> I am anxious to reread Mawlana's writings in Arabic. I Know they are
> not many but can you please tell me where I can get an electronic
> copy of them. Thank you most sincerely.
>
> Basil Samara

[Dar-al-Masnavi] Master Rumi's Arabic Writings

2011-03-01T05:12:00.000-03:00

Dear Ibrahim:
Assalamu Alaykum!

I am anxious to reread Mawlana's writings in Arabic. I Know they are not many but can you please tell me where I can get an electronic copy of them. Thank you most sincerely.

Basil Samara

[Dar-al-Masnavi] Ibrahim's speech in Konya, December 2010

2011-02-26T17:33:00.000-03:00

http://dar-al-masnavi.org/konya-symposium.html

[Dar-al-Masnavi] Re: Barks' versions from Mawlana's father's book

2011-01-23T19:02:00.000-03:00

Dear Iljas,
Salâm,

Have put the three comparative selections, plus my comments and an
introduction, as a webpage on the website:

http://dar-al-masnavi.org/from-bahauddin-walad.html

Ibrahim
-------------

On Jan 15, 11:15 pm, Iljas Baker <iljasba...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Ibrahim and Jafar,
>
> Thanks for your responses. It would be interesting to have more verses
> compared.
>
> I, as is the case with most of Barks's works, still enjoy much of the book
> whether or not it is a true reflection of the original, but every so often
> come up against words and phrases that are definitely more Barks than
> Bahauddin and this really turns me off. With a translation you should still
> feel you are communicating with the original author to some extent should
> you not. I think this whole issue of Rumi's translators and now Bahauddin's
> really needs to be brought to the public's attention (or at least a certain
> section of it that might be interested in these matters). Some kind of
> academic forum might be the most appropriate.
>
> Iljas
>
> On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 1:05 PM, jafar rahbari <rahbari.ja...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>
>
> > Salaam
> > I am Persian. I have studied translation studies, my Thesis was on Masnavi,
> > If you'd like I can compare this version with the original.
> > Jafar Rahbari
>
> > On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 11:02 AM, Ibrahim <daralmasnavi....@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >> Salaam,
>
> >> I am currently reading the Barks & Moyne translation called *The
> >> drowned
> >> book*, which as you probably know contains excerpts from the *Maarif
> >> *of
> >> Bahauddin (Rumi's father). What I wonder is: does anyone who knows
> >> Persian
> >> know whether the translations in this book are accurate? By that I
> >> mean do
> >> they distort the originals in any way?
>
> >> Iljas
>
> >> ---------------
> >> Der Iljas,
> >> Salâm,
>
> >> Please excuse the delay in responding, but am recently returned from
> >> Konya. I do not recommend this book. Despite all his poetic skills and
> >> efforts to make a more pleasant read out of Javad Mo`in's literal
> >> translation, C. Barks (not knowing Persian) can only reduce to
> >> superficial truncation the profound visions of Mawlana's father. And
> >> when you compare to the accurate translation made by Arberry of a
> >> small part of the book (the first 19 chapters), one is left with the
> >> impression that Mo`in was not a good translator of the Persian text.
>
> >> 'Guide us on the straight path' (Koran I: 6). I said, 'O God, of Thy
> >> favour convey every part of me to the city of joy and ease, and open
> >> to every part of me a thousand portals of joy.' The straight path is
> >> that which conveys a man to the city of joy, and the crooked path is
> >> that which conveys not a man to the city of joy.
>
> >> Even so I saw that God had given me and all my parts to taste the
> >> savour of all lovely ones, so that it was as if every part of me was
> >> commingled with every part of them; and milk came flowing out of every
> >> part of me. Every conceivable form of beauty and perfection and savour
> >> and love--all of these became as it were visible out of God's essence
> >> in the six directions of me. Just as when a man possesses an azure
> >> robe, and on that robe are figures of every kind, and every manner of
> >> shapes and hues, even so God manifests in me out of Himself a hundred
> >> thousand forms of sense and perception; and I behold the forms of all
> >> beauteous and lovely ones and their loves, and harmonies, and the
> >> forms of all intelligible things, maidens of Paradise and palaces and
> >> running water and other marvels beyond all reckoning. I contemplate
> >> these forms, that so much beauty appears arrayed within me; God shows
> >> me every form that I desire, and I see that those all become visible
> >> ut of the part of me. And I saw that God had made to appear a hundred
> >> thousand fragrant herbs, rose and rose-garden, jasmine yellow and
> >> white, and had converted the parts of me into a rose-bower Then God
> >> squeezed all those and made them into rose-water; out of its sweet
> >> perfume He created maidens of Paradise, and mingled all the parts of
> >> me with them. So I saw in truth that all lovely forms are the form of
> >> the fruit of God, and all of these delights come to me from God even
> >> in this present world.
>
> >> If they say, 'Do you see God, or do you not see?' I answer, 'Of myself
> >> I do not see, for "Thou shalt not see Me" (Koran VII: 143). But when
> >> He shows Himself, what can I do not to see?
>
> >> --Ma`ârif-e Bahâ'u'd-dîn Walad, Chapter 1, literal translation
> >> --translated by A.J. Arberry as "Mystical Moments" in "Aspects of
> >> Islamic Civilization: As Depicted in the Original Text," Allen &
> >> Unwin, 1964, pp. 227-229
>
> >> --------------
>
> >> Show the true way (Qur'an 1:6)
> >> I have been given a taste for what is beautiful. Like milk running
> >> through my body, the gates open. I wear a blue robe woven of six
> >> directions with watercolor images flowing over the cloth, a thousand
> >> kinds of flowers, yellow jasmine, wild iris. Orchard corridors,
> >> handsome faces on the street, I am composed of this beauty, the attar
> >> of pressed plants, rose oil, resinous balsam: live essence, I am the
> >> intelligent juice of flowers.
>
> >> --version by Coleman Barks based on a literal translation by John
> >> Moyne
> >> -- "The Drowned Book: Ecstatic and Earthly Reflection of Bahauddin the
> >> Father of Rumi,"
> >> HarperSanFrancisco, 2004, p. 1
>
> >> *************
>
> >> I was seated. I said, 'Wherewithal shall I busy myself?' God inspired
> >> me, saying, 'I gave thouness to thee for this purpose, that when thou
> >> becomes distraught [[khîra]] in Me, and thy heart is weary of My
> >> nearness, thou mayest gaze upon thyself and become busy with thyself.'
> >> I said, 'Then there are two existents: one God, and one myself. If I
> >> gaze upon God, I become distraught; and if I gaze upon myself, I
> >> become confused [[fikâr]]. Perchance I should offer up myself.'
>
> >> I gaze upon God, saying, 'O God, Thou hast set before me this broth of
> >> being, with all its filth and sourness, a nauseating morsel. It is
> >> this that troubles me. Take this away from me, that Thy comfort, O
> >> God, may emerge out of the veil. With such a morsel how can I find
> >> happiness? Let me gaze only upon this self of mine: God has given me
> >> this in order that I may offer it up.' And I weep, and I consider its
> >> state, what it will do in the moment of giving up the ghost and how it
> >> will die.
>
> >> I saw that little by little my meditation diminished, and sleep began
> >> to overcome me. I said, 'Perchance this is because I am not making an
> >> effort.' So I return to meditating, until I fall asleep. When I am
> >> asleep, it is as though I resemble a tree in that I am in the earth.
> >> If when sleeping I am unaware, it is as though I lift my head up from
> >> the earth. When I gaze a little upon myself, it is as though I grow
> >> tall. When I gaze with my eyes and move with my body, it is as though
> >> branches are sprouting from me. When I make a greater effort with all
> >> my heart to meditate, it is as though I am producing clusters of
> >> flowers. When I utter on my tongue the remembrance of God, it is as
> >> though I am bearing fruit. So veil on veil is removed; the more effort
> >> I make, the more marvellous are the things that seem to emerge out of
> >> me; as though all these things are in the mouth of not-being, and not-
> >> being has placed its mouth on my mouth.
> >> --Ma`ârif-e Bahâ'u'd-dîn Walad, from Chapter 6, literal translation
> >> --trans. by Arberry, pp. 235-236
>
> >> ------------
> >> I was sitting, wondering what I should do, when I received this
> >> revelation: Open your heart. Feel the closeness with God. Look inside
> >> yourself. Tend the awareness there.
>
> >> Which led me to think, There are two entities here, God and myself.
> >> God, the dazzling mystery; me, the confused mixture of dead and bitter
> >> thatI must suffer through to reach God.
>
> >> Tangled in these thoughts, I get drowsy. In sleep I become a night-
> >> silent tree, rootedin nonbeing. As I wake the tree puts forth branches
> >> and leaves. Eyesight returns; limbs move in the air. My heart feels
> >> like flowers opening along a branch. Prayer expands to become fruit,
> >> and nonbeing is the taste of language in my mouth.
> >> --version by Barks, based on a translation by Moyne, pp. 4-5
>
> >> **********
> >> COMMENTS: Bahauddin Walad did not say, in the first selection, "I am
> >> the intelligent juice of flowers". And he did not say, in the second
> >> selection, "Prayer expands to become fruit". Rather, he said, "When I
> >> utter on my tongue the remembrance of God, it is as though I am
> >> bearing fruit." [chûn ba-Zikr ba-zabân bar mê-ây-am, gô-î (ke) mîwa
> >> bêrûn mê-âr-am] He did not say, "nonbeing is the taste of language in
> >> my mouth." Rather, he said, "as though all these things are in the
> >> mouth of not-being, and not-being has placed its mouth on my
> >> mouth." [în hama-râ gô-î ke dar dahân-e `adam-ast wa `adam dahân bar
> >> dahân-e man nehâda-ast, wa 'llâhu a`lam]
>
> >> Ibrahim
>
> >> --
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> >> "Dar-al-Masnavi" group.
> >> To post to this group, send email to dar-al-masnavi@googlegroups.com.
> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> >> dar-al-masnavi+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<dar-al-masnavi%2Bunsubscribe@go oglegroups.com>
> >> .
> >> For more options, visit this group at
> >>http://groups.google.com/group/dar-al-masnavi?hl=en.
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Dar-al-Masnavi" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to dar-al-masnavi@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > dar-al-masnavi+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<dar-al-masnavi%2Bunsubscribe@go oglegroups.com>
> > .
> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/dar-al-masnavi?hl=en.

Re: [Dar-al-Masnavi] Barks' versions from Mawlana's father's book

2011-01-17T01:31:00.000-03:00

Dear Iljas

Salaam

You are right. Finding suitable equivalences is so difficult in translation process, because the unit of translation of poetry is the smallest, on the other hand poet tries to find best words for expressing his or her idea, using minimax, I mean trying to say so much in so little.

Now when the poet is Mawlana its more obvious, full of rhyme, rhythm, wieght, beat... , and full of allusion, metaphor, pun...in form and, full of Islamic idea which is difficult to transfer in translation, especially when they are not Muslim.

Thank you very much

IN TAN AGAR KAM TANADI, BAARE DELAM KAM ZANADI

[Dar-al-Masnavi] Re: Barks' versions from Mawlana's father's book

2011-01-16T23:11:00.000-03:00

Dear Iljas,
Salâm,

Here is anther comparison. It was the first one I put together, but
did not post it due to the difficulty of explaining the sajda
(prostration) of obeisance. I'm posting it now, hoping that I have
explained it sufficiently so that it will not be misunderstood.
I have transliterated phrases from the Persian text [from the edition
made by Foruzanfar, the same edition used by John Moyne) and added
them in double brackets.

Ibrahim

~~~~~~~~~

NOTE: In order to understand the beginning of Bahâ'uddîn Walad's 13th
section, the "prostration of obeisance" needs to be explained. This is
not a prostration of worship and it is not an Islamic prostration. It
derives from the ancient prostration of obedience to the authority of
a king. It was adopted by sufis, whose humble buildings were likened
to a royal court [dargâh] and whose sufi master [murshid, shaykh] was
a kind of dervish "king", toward whom disciples prostrated when
entering the room. According to Aflâkî, Mawlana Rumi defended this
type of prostration.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I was seated in the mosque at morning. Everyone was saluting and
bowing [[har kasê salâm mê-goft-and wa sujûd mê-kard-and]]. I said,
"God is presenting my spirit to them; He is adorning my spirit and
showing it to them adorned. So they are seeing those traces of God's
handiwork and are bowing to me out of love for God [[ma-râ sajda mê-
kon-and az dôstî-yé allâh]]. Even though that be out of hypocrisy and
deceit and fraud, all the same that too is God's adornment.

When I see the people bowing to to my spirit [[chûn khalq-ân-râ sâjid-
é rûH-é khwod mê-bîn-am]], I offer God all the more thanks. And I see
that God sometimes knots my spirit with other men's spirits, and
sometimes unbinds them and brings each one into its separate place. I
saw that all this was by the decree of the Living, the Eternal One;
and that I brought the Living, Eternal God before my heart, and gazed
upon the life and craftsmanship of God, and my heart became alive.
Again I gazed at the attribute of my own perception and saw that God
has detained a certain folk in the chastisement of cold and bitter
chill, while others He has detained in heat and fire.

I gazed next at the world, and saw that the world was duly ordered. I
gazed again at the world, and saw all influences and causes. I gazed
again, and saw an infinite smooth ocean, and I saw not-being [[`adam]]
surging incessantly, and valleys outstretched. Once more I gazed upon
the world, and I saw neither particles nor aught outstretched. I gazed
again upon the world, and discovered Him only who has no associate
[[waHdahu lâ sharîka la-hu]]. Then I gazed upon the infinite and
unlimited attributes, and saw that there no ocean manifests and is
naughted again.

Again I gazed and saw some folk plunged in joy and ecstasy and
gladness. I said, "These are the people of Paradise." Others I saw
wailing in agony ; I said, "These are the people of Hell." I gazed
again and saw envy and hatred and enmity in some men. I said, "Let me
at least gaze behind these, that I may see who it is that has set
these things in the air and is showing them to me." I saw how that God
had taken them in His hand and was holding them before me, that I
might see; He was drawing these pictures before me, to draw me too and
adorn me.

In that very moment I saw that that thorn-tree of envy and enmity and
hatred had become all jasmine before me, and blossoms and flowers,
spilling before me. Again, if sorrow and grief visit me, I see that
sorrow and grief are the musky tresses of God which He has scattered
over my face. I see again how He lifts them up from me. It is as
though God has made these things which I see to be a guide [[rah-namûn
karda-ast]], pointing to my venerableness [[ba-`azîz-dâsht-é man]].
For I am the bounty of God [[ke ni`matu 'llâh-am]] and God's bounty is
surely to be venerated [[wa ni`matu 'llâh `azîz mê-bây-ad dâshtan wa
'llâhu a`lam]].
--Ma`ârif-e Bahâ'uddîn Walad, Chapter 13

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

MORNING SALAAMS

Early each morning I sit in the mosque. As people come in, they give
salaams. The peace of God, God's peace. Then they do a full
prostration in front of me. I know what God is doing: composing my
soul so that it appears with such beauty to these people that they
want to honor the workmanship.

Even if they see my hypocrisy, the conflicting emotions, my love of
flattery, still, mostly they recognize the divine attention that has
been given to me. I am grateful for the way my soul is sometimes drawn
to move with other souls and then separated from them. I observe here
a law of soulmaking with exciting possibilities for understanding.

Scenes of how it operates appear: People in arctic cold, others in the
tropics. Oceans, high desert canyons, wooded valley, all in harmony
with "the One who has no partner." There is a group that sings and
moves in pure joy; another is quiet in the midst of tremendous grief
and carnage. A tree bristling with thorns: jealousy, meanspirited
revenge. Then the white jasmine flowers bud, open, and drop the gift
of themselves.

Why are we shown this? So we can appreciate the whole as given. When I
am grieved and without hope, I accept that as grace, as well as the
removal of pain. A deep knowing comes as we are shown, receive, and
grow to love both.
-- "The Drowned Book: Ecstatic and Earthy reflections of Bahauddin The
Father of Rumi," translated by John Moyne and interpreted by Coleman
Barks, HarperCollins, 2004, p. 6

COMMENTS:
He did not say, "Even if they see my hypocrisy..." Rather, he said,
"Even though that [[=offering of bows of obeisance of theirs]] be out
of hypocrisy..." [[agar-che ba-riyâ' wa nifâq wa sâlûs bâsh-ad]]. He
did not say, "I observe here a law of soulmaking with exciting
possibilities for understanding." Rather, he said, "[[I]] gazed upon
the life and craftsmanship of God" [[wa dar zendagîy-é allâh wa kâr-
sâzî-yé way naZar mê-kard-am]]. Barks' version avoids the religious
reference to the people in Hell by a pretense that the reference to
people in the arctic or the tropics. When Barks depicts the white
jasmine flowers budding and opening, his addition ("and drop the gift
of themselves") is his own image. Barks' final interpretation ("A deep
knowing comes as we are shown, receive, and grow to love both")
contains his own ideas about the reference to sorrow and grief [[gham
wa andûh]]. Barks' version omits Bahâ'uddîn Walad's profound
conclusion.

Re: [Dar-al-Masnavi] Barks' versions from Mawlana's father's book

2011-01-16T04:15:00.000-03:00

Dear Ibrahim and Jafar,

Thanks for your responses. It would be interesting to have more verses compared.

I, as is the case with most of Barks's works, still enjoy much of the book whether or not it is a true reflection of the original, but every so often come up against words and phrases that are definitely more Barks than Bahauddin and this really turns me off. With a translation you should still feel you are communicating with the original author to some extent should you not. I think this whole issue of Rumi's translators and now Bahauddin's really needs to be brought to the public's attention (or at least a certain section of it that might be interested in these matters). Some kind of academic forum might be the most appropriate.

Iljas

On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 1:05 PM, jafar rahbari <rahbari.jafar@gmail.com> wrote:

Salaam

I am Persian. I have studied translation studies, my Thesis was on Masnavi, If you'd like I can compare this version with the original.

Jafar Rahbari

On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 11:02 AM, Ibrahim <daralmasnavi.org@gmail.com> wrote:

Salaam,

I am currently reading the Barks & Moyne translation called *The
drowned
book*, which as you probably know contains excerpts from the *Maarif
*of
Bahauddin (Rumi's father). What I wonder is: does anyone who knows
Persian
know whether the translations in this book are accurate? By that I
mean do
they distort the originals in any way?

Iljas

---------------
Der Iljas,
Salâm,

Please excuse the delay in responding, but am recently returned from
Konya. I do not recommend this book. Despite all his poetic skills and
efforts to make a more pleasant read out of Javad Mo`in's literal
translation, C. Barks (not knowing Persian) can only reduce to
superficial truncation the profound visions of Mawlana's father. And
when you compare to the accurate translation made by Arberry of a
small part of the book (the first 19 chapters), one is left with the
impression that Mo`in was not a good translator of the Persian text.

'Guide us on the straight path' (Koran I: 6). I said, 'O God, of Thy
favour convey every part of me to the city of joy and ease, and open
to every part of me a thousand portals of joy.' The straight path is
that which conveys a man to the city of joy, and the crooked path is
that which conveys not a man to the city of joy.

Even so I saw that God had given me and all my parts to taste the
savour of all lovely ones, so that it was as if every part of me was
commingled with every part of them; and milk came flowing out of every
part of me. Every conceivable form of beauty and perfection and savour
and love--all of these became as it were visible out of God's essence
in the six directions of me. Just as when a man possesses an azure
robe, and on that robe are figures of every kind, and every manner of
shapes and hues, even so God manifests in me out of Himself a hundred
thousand forms of sense and perception; and I behold the forms of all
beauteous and lovely ones and their loves, and harmonies, and the
forms of all intelligible things, maidens of Paradise and palaces and
running water and other marvels beyond all reckoning. I contemplate
these forms, that so much beauty appears arrayed within me; God shows
me every form that I desire, and I see that those all become visible
ut of the part of me. And I saw that God had made to appear a hundred
thousand fragrant herbs, rose and rose-garden, jasmine yellow and
white, and had converted the parts of me into a rose-bower Then God
squeezed all those and made them into rose-water; out of its sweet
perfume He created maidens of Paradise, and mingled all the parts of
me with them. So I saw in truth that all lovely forms are the form of
the fruit of God, and all of these delights come to me from God even
in this present world.

If they say, 'Do you see God, or do you not see?' I answer, 'Of myself
I do not see, for "Thou shalt not see Me" (Koran VII: 143). But when
He shows Himself, what can I do not to see?

--Ma`ârif-e Bahâ'u'd-dîn Walad, Chapter 1, literal translation
--translated by A.J. Arberry as "Mystical Moments" in "Aspects of
Islamic Civilization: As Depicted in the Original Text," Allen &
Unwin, 1964, pp. 227-229

--------------

Show the true way (Qur'an 1:6)
I have been given a taste for what is beautiful. Like milk running
through my body, the gates open. I wear a blue robe woven of six
directions with watercolor images flowing over the cloth, a thousand
kinds of flowers, yellow jasmine, wild iris. Orchard corridors,
handsome faces on the street, I am composed of this beauty, the attar
of pressed plants, rose oil, resinous balsam: live essence, I am the
intelligent juice of flowers.

--version by Coleman Barks based on a literal translation by John
Moyne
-- "The Drowned Book: Ecstatic and Earthly Reflection of Bahauddin the
Father of Rumi,"
HarperSanFrancisco, 2004, p. 1

*************

I was seated. I said, 'Wherewithal shall I busy myself?' God inspired
me, saying, 'I gave thouness to thee for this purpose, that when thou
becomes distraught [[khîra]] in Me, and thy heart is weary of My
nearness, thou mayest gaze upon thyself and become busy with thyself.'
I said, 'Then there are two existents: one God, and one myself. If I
gaze upon God, I become distraught; and if I gaze upon myself, I
become confused [[fikâr]]. Perchance I should offer up myself.'

I gaze upon God, saying, 'O God, Thou hast set before me this broth of
being, with all its filth and sourness, a nauseating morsel. It is
this that troubles me. Take this away from me, that Thy comfort, O
God, may emerge out of the veil. With such a morsel how can I find
happiness? Let me gaze only upon this self of mine: God has given me
this in order that I may offer it up.' And I weep, and I consider its
state, what it will do in the moment of giving up the ghost and how it
will die.

I saw that little by little my meditation diminished, and sleep began
to overcome me. I said, 'Perchance this is because I am not making an
effort.' So I return to meditating, until I fall asleep. When I am
asleep, it is as though I resemble a tree in that I am in the earth.
If when sleeping I am unaware, it is as though I lift my head up from
the earth. When I gaze a little upon myself, it is as though I grow
tall. When I gaze with my eyes and move with my body, it is as though
branches are sprouting from me. When I make a greater effort with all
my heart to meditate, it is as though I am producing clusters of
flowers. When I utter on my tongue the remembrance of God, it is as
though I am bearing fruit. So veil on veil is removed; the more effort
I make, the more marvellous are the things that seem to emerge out of
me; as though all these things are in the mouth of not-being, and not-
being has placed its mouth on my mouth.
--Ma`ârif-e Bahâ'u'd-dîn Walad, from Chapter 6, literal translation
--trans. by Arberry, pp. 235-236

------------
I was sitting, wondering what I should do, when I received this
revelation: Open your heart. Feel the closeness with God. Look inside
yourself. Tend the awareness there.

Which led me to think, There are two entities here, God and myself.
God, the dazzling mystery; me, the confused mixture of dead and bitter
thatI must suffer through to reach God.

Tangled in these thoughts, I get drowsy. In sleep I become a night-
silent tree, rootedin nonbeing. As I wake the tree puts forth branches
and leaves. Eyesight returns; limbs move in the air. My heart feels
like flowers opening along a branch. Prayer expands to become fruit,
and nonbeing is the taste of language in my mouth.
--version by Barks, based on a translation by Moyne, pp. 4-5

**********
COMMENTS: Bahauddin Walad did not say, in the first selection, "I am
the intelligent juice of flowers". And he did not say, in the second
selection, "Prayer expands to become fruit". Rather, he said, "When I
utter on my tongue the remembrance of God, it is as though I am
bearing fruit." [chûn ba-Zikr ba-zabân bar mê-ây-am, gô-î (ke) mîwa
bêrûn mê-âr-am] He did not say, "nonbeing is the taste of language in
my mouth." Rather, he said, "as though all these things are in the
mouth of not-being, and not-being has placed its mouth on my
mouth." [în hama-râ gô-î ke dar dahân-e `adam-ast wa `adam dahân bar
dahân-e man nehâda-ast, wa 'llâhu a`lam]

Ibrahim

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Re: [Dar-al-Masnavi] Barks' versions from Mawlana's father's book

2011-01-15T03:05:00.001-03:00

Salaam

I am Persian. I have studied translation studies, my Thesis was on Masnavi, If you'd like I can compare this version with the original.

Jafar Rahbari

On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 11:02 AM, Ibrahim <daralmasnavi.org@gmail.com> wrote:

Salaam,

I am currently reading the Barks & Moyne translation called *The
drowned
book*, which as you probably know contains excerpts from the *Maarif
*of
Bahauddin (Rumi's father). What I wonder is: does anyone who knows
Persian
know whether the translations in this book are accurate? By that I
mean do
they distort the originals in any way?

Iljas

---------------
Der Iljas,
Salâm,

Please excuse the delay in responding, but am recently returned from
Konya. I do not recommend this book. Despite all his poetic skills and
efforts to make a more pleasant read out of Javad Mo`in's literal
translation, C. Barks (not knowing Persian) can only reduce to
superficial truncation the profound visions of Mawlana's father. And
when you compare to the accurate translation made by Arberry of a
small part of the book (the first 19 chapters), one is left with the
impression that Mo`in was not a good translator of the Persian text.

'Guide us on the straight path' (Koran I: 6). I said, 'O God, of Thy
favour convey every part of me to the city of joy and ease, and open
to every part of me a thousand portals of joy.' The straight path is
that which conveys a man to the city of joy, and the crooked path is
that which conveys not a man to the city of joy.

Even so I saw that God had given me and all my parts to taste the
savour of all lovely ones, so that it was as if every part of me was
commingled with every part of them; and milk came flowing out of every
part of me. Every conceivable form of beauty and perfection and savour
and love--all of these became as it were visible out of God's essence
in the six directions of me. Just as when a man possesses an azure
robe, and on that robe are figures of every kind, and every manner of
shapes and hues, even so God manifests in me out of Himself a hundred
thousand forms of sense and perception; and I behold the forms of all
beauteous and lovely ones and their loves, and harmonies, and the
forms of all intelligible things, maidens of Paradise and palaces and
running water and other marvels beyond all reckoning. I contemplate
these forms, that so much beauty appears arrayed within me; God shows
me every form that I desire, and I see that those all become visible
ut of the part of me. And I saw that God had made to appear a hundred
thousand fragrant herbs, rose and rose-garden, jasmine yellow and
white, and had converted the parts of me into a rose-bower Then God
squeezed all those and made them into rose-water; out of its sweet
perfume He created maidens of Paradise, and mingled all the parts of
me with them. So I saw in truth that all lovely forms are the form of
the fruit of God, and all of these delights come to me from God even
in this present world.

If they say, 'Do you see God, or do you not see?' I answer, 'Of myself
I do not see, for "Thou shalt not see Me" (Koran VII: 143). But when
He shows Himself, what can I do not to see?

--Ma`ârif-e Bahâ'u'd-dîn Walad, Chapter 1, literal translation
--translated by A.J. Arberry as "Mystical Moments" in "Aspects of
Islamic Civilization: As Depicted in the Original Text," Allen &
Unwin, 1964, pp. 227-229

--------------

Show the true way (Qur'an 1:6)
I have been given a taste for what is beautiful. Like milk running
through my body, the gates open. I wear a blue robe woven of six
directions with watercolor images flowing over the cloth, a thousand
kinds of flowers, yellow jasmine, wild iris. Orchard corridors,
handsome faces on the street, I am composed of this beauty, the attar
of pressed plants, rose oil, resinous balsam: live essence, I am the
intelligent juice of flowers.

--version by Coleman Barks based on a literal translation by John
Moyne
-- "The Drowned Book: Ecstatic and Earthly Reflection of Bahauddin the
Father of Rumi,"
HarperSanFrancisco, 2004, p. 1

*************

I was seated. I said, 'Wherewithal shall I busy myself?' God inspired
me, saying, 'I gave thouness to thee for this purpose, that when thou
becomes distraught [[khîra]] in Me, and thy heart is weary of My
nearness, thou mayest gaze upon thyself and become busy with thyself.'
I said, 'Then there are two existents: one God, and one myself. If I
gaze upon God, I become distraught; and if I gaze upon myself, I
become confused [[fikâr]]. Perchance I should offer up myself.'

I gaze upon God, saying, 'O God, Thou hast set before me this broth of
being, with all its filth and sourness, a nauseating morsel. It is
this that troubles me. Take this away from me, that Thy comfort, O
God, may emerge out of the veil. With such a morsel how can I find
happiness? Let me gaze only upon this self of mine: God has given me
this in order that I may offer it up.' And I weep, and I consider its
state, what it will do in the moment of giving up the ghost and how it
will die.

I saw that little by little my meditation diminished, and sleep began
to overcome me. I said, 'Perchance this is because I am not making an
effort.' So I return to meditating, until I fall asleep. When I am
asleep, it is as though I resemble a tree in that I am in the earth.
If when sleeping I am unaware, it is as though I lift my head up from
the earth. When I gaze a little upon myself, it is as though I grow
tall. When I gaze with my eyes and move with my body, it is as though
branches are sprouting from me. When I make a greater effort with all
my heart to meditate, it is as though I am producing clusters of
flowers. When I utter on my tongue the remembrance of God, it is as
though I am bearing fruit. So veil on veil is removed; the more effort
I make, the more marvellous are the things that seem to emerge out of
me; as though all these things are in the mouth of not-being, and not-
being has placed its mouth on my mouth.
--Ma`ârif-e Bahâ'u'd-dîn Walad, from Chapter 6, literal translation
--trans. by Arberry, pp. 235-236

------------
I was sitting, wondering what I should do, when I received this
revelation: Open your heart. Feel the closeness with God. Look inside
yourself. Tend the awareness there.

Which led me to think, There are two entities here, God and myself.
God, the dazzling mystery; me, the confused mixture of dead and bitter
thatI must suffer through to reach God.

Tangled in these thoughts, I get drowsy. In sleep I become a night-
silent tree, rootedin nonbeing. As I wake the tree puts forth branches
and leaves. Eyesight returns; limbs move in the air. My heart feels
like flowers opening along a branch. Prayer expands to become fruit,
and nonbeing is the taste of language in my mouth.
--version by Barks, based on a translation by Moyne, pp. 4-5

**********
COMMENTS: Bahauddin Walad did not say, in the first selection, "I am
the intelligent juice of flowers". And he did not say, in the second
selection, "Prayer expands to become fruit". Rather, he said, "When I
utter on my tongue the remembrance of God, it is as though I am
bearing fruit." [chûn ba-Zikr ba-zabân bar mê-ây-am, gô-î (ke) mîwa
bêrûn mê-âr-am] He did not say, "nonbeing is the taste of language in
my mouth." Rather, he said, "as though all these things are in the
mouth of not-being, and not-being has placed its mouth on my
mouth." [în hama-râ gô-î ke dar dahân-e `adam-ast wa `adam dahân bar
dahân-e man nehâda-ast, wa 'llâhu a`lam]

Ibrahim

--
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Re: [Dar-al-Masnavi] Barks' versions from Mawlana's father's book

2011-01-15T03:05:00.000-03:00

Salaam

I am Persian. I have studied translation studies, my Thesis was on Masnavi, If you'd like I can compare this version with the original.

Jafar Rahbari

On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 11:02 AM, Ibrahim <daralmasnavi.org@gmail.com> wrote:

Salaam,

I am currently reading the Barks & Moyne translation called *The
drowned
book*, which as you probably know contains excerpts from the *Maarif
*of
Bahauddin (Rumi's father). What I wonder is: does anyone who knows
Persian
know whether the translations in this book are accurate? By that I
mean do
they distort the originals in any way?

Iljas

---------------
Der Iljas,
Salâm,

Please excuse the delay in responding, but am recently returned from
Konya. I do not recommend this book. Despite all his poetic skills and
efforts to make a more pleasant read out of Javad Mo`in's literal
translation, C. Barks (not knowing Persian) can only reduce to
superficial truncation the profound visions of Mawlana's father. And
when you compare to the accurate translation made by Arberry of a
small part of the book (the first 19 chapters), one is left with the
impression that Mo`in was not a good translator of the Persian text.

'Guide us on the straight path' (Koran I: 6). I said, 'O God, of Thy
favour convey every part of me to the city of joy and ease, and open
to every part of me a thousand portals of joy.' The straight path is
that which conveys a man to the city of joy, and the crooked path is
that which conveys not a man to the city of joy.

Even so I saw that God had given me and all my parts to taste the
savour of all lovely ones, so that it was as if every part of me was
commingled with every part of them; and milk came flowing out of every
part of me. Every conceivable form of beauty and perfection and savour
and love--all of these became as it were visible out of God's essence
in the six directions of me. Just as when a man possesses an azure
robe, and on that robe are figures of every kind, and every manner of
shapes and hues, even so God manifests in me out of Himself a hundred
thousand forms of sense and perception; and I behold the forms of all
beauteous and lovely ones and their loves, and harmonies, and the
forms of all intelligible things, maidens of Paradise and palaces and
running water and other marvels beyond all reckoning. I contemplate
these forms, that so much beauty appears arrayed within me; God shows
me every form that I desire, and I see that those all become visible
ut of the part of me. And I saw that God had made to appear a hundred
thousand fragrant herbs, rose and rose-garden, jasmine yellow and
white, and had converted the parts of me into a rose-bower Then God
squeezed all those and made them into rose-water; out of its sweet
perfume He created maidens of Paradise, and mingled all the parts of
me with them. So I saw in truth that all lovely forms are the form of
the fruit of God, and all of these delights come to me from God even
in this present world.

If they say, 'Do you see God, or do you not see?' I answer, 'Of myself
I do not see, for "Thou shalt not see Me" (Koran VII: 143). But when
He shows Himself, what can I do not to see?

--Ma`ârif-e Bahâ'u'd-dîn Walad, Chapter 1, literal translation
--translated by A.J. Arberry as "Mystical Moments" in "Aspects of
Islamic Civilization: As Depicted in the Original Text," Allen &
Unwin, 1964, pp. 227-229

--------------

Show the true way (Qur'an 1:6)
I have been given a taste for what is beautiful. Like milk running
through my body, the gates open. I wear a blue robe woven of six
directions with watercolor images flowing over the cloth, a thousand
kinds of flowers, yellow jasmine, wild iris. Orchard corridors,
handsome faces on the street, I am composed of this beauty, the attar
of pressed plants, rose oil, resinous balsam: live essence, I am the
intelligent juice of flowers.

--version by Coleman Barks based on a literal translation by John
Moyne
-- "The Drowned Book: Ecstatic and Earthly Reflection of Bahauddin the
Father of Rumi,"
HarperSanFrancisco, 2004, p. 1

*************

I was seated. I said, 'Wherewithal shall I busy myself?' God inspired
me, saying, 'I gave thouness to thee for this purpose, that when thou
becomes distraught [[khîra]] in Me, and thy heart is weary of My
nearness, thou mayest gaze upon thyself and become busy with thyself.'
I said, 'Then there are two existents: one God, and one myself. If I
gaze upon God, I become distraught; and if I gaze upon myself, I
become confused [[fikâr]]. Perchance I should offer up myself.'

I gaze upon God, saying, 'O God, Thou hast set before me this broth of
being, with all its filth and sourness, a nauseating morsel. It is
this that troubles me. Take this away from me, that Thy comfort, O
God, may emerge out of the veil. With such a morsel how can I find
happiness? Let me gaze only upon this self of mine: God has given me
this in order that I may offer it up.' And I weep, and I consider its
state, what it will do in the moment of giving up the ghost and how it
will die.

I saw that little by little my meditation diminished, and sleep began
to overcome me. I said, 'Perchance this is because I am not making an
effort.' So I return to meditating, until I fall asleep. When I am
asleep, it is as though I resemble a tree in that I am in the earth.
If when sleeping I am unaware, it is as though I lift my head up from
the earth. When I gaze a little upon myself, it is as though I grow
tall. When I gaze with my eyes and move with my body, it is as though
branches are sprouting from me. When I make a greater effort with all
my heart to meditate, it is as though I am producing clusters of
flowers. When I utter on my tongue the remembrance of God, it is as
though I am bearing fruit. So veil on veil is removed; the more effort
I make, the more marvellous are the things that seem to emerge out of
me; as though all these things are in the mouth of not-being, and not-
being has placed its mouth on my mouth.
--Ma`ârif-e Bahâ'u'd-dîn Walad, from Chapter 6, literal translation
--trans. by Arberry, pp. 235-236

------------
I was sitting, wondering what I should do, when I received this
revelation: Open your heart. Feel the closeness with God. Look inside
yourself. Tend the awareness there.

Which led me to think, There are two entities here, God and myself.
God, the dazzling mystery; me, the confused mixture of dead and bitter
thatI must suffer through to reach God.

Tangled in these thoughts, I get drowsy. In sleep I become a night-
silent tree, rootedin nonbeing. As I wake the tree puts forth branches
and leaves. Eyesight returns; limbs move in the air. My heart feels
like flowers opening along a branch. Prayer expands to become fruit,
and nonbeing is the taste of language in my mouth.
--version by Barks, based on a translation by Moyne, pp. 4-5

**********
COMMENTS: Bahauddin Walad did not say, in the first selection, "I am
the intelligent juice of flowers". And he did not say, in the second
selection, "Prayer expands to become fruit". Rather, he said, "When I
utter on my tongue the remembrance of God, it is as though I am
bearing fruit." [chûn ba-Zikr ba-zabân bar mê-ây-am, gô-î (ke) mîwa
bêrûn mê-âr-am] He did not say, "nonbeing is the taste of language in
my mouth." Rather, he said, "as though all these things are in the
mouth of not-being, and not-being has placed its mouth on my
mouth." [în hama-râ gô-î ke dar dahân-e `adam-ast wa `adam dahân bar
dahân-e man nehâda-ast, wa 'llâhu a`lam]

Ibrahim

--
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[Dar-al-Masnavi] Barks' versions from Mawlana's father's book

2011-01-09T03:32:00.000-03:00

Salaam,

I am currently reading the Barks & Moyne translation called *The
drowned
book*, which as you probably know contains excerpts from the *Maarif
*of
Bahauddin (Rumi's father). What I wonder is: does anyone who knows
Persian
know whether the translations in this book are accurate? By that I
mean do
they distort the originals in any way?

Iljas

---------------
Der Iljas,
Salâm,

Please excuse the delay in responding, but am recently returned from
Konya. I do not recommend this book. Despite all his poetic skills and
efforts to make a more pleasant read out of Javad Mo`in's literal
translation, C. Barks (not knowing Persian) can only reduce to
superficial truncation the profound visions of Mawlana's father. And
when you compare to the accurate translation made by Arberry of a
small part of the book (the first 19 chapters), one is left with the
impression that Mo`in was not a good translator of the Persian text.

'Guide us on the straight path' (Koran I: 6). I said, 'O God, of Thy
favour convey every part of me to the city of joy and ease, and open
to every part of me a thousand portals of joy.' The straight path is
that which conveys a man to the city of joy, and the crooked path is
that which conveys not a man to the city of joy.

Even so I saw that God had given me and all my parts to taste the
savour of all lovely ones, so that it was as if every part of me was
commingled with every part of them; and milk came flowing out of every
part of me. Every conceivable form of beauty and perfection and savour
and love--all of these became as it were visible out of God's essence
in the six directions of me. Just as when a man possesses an azure
robe, and on that robe are figures of every kind, and every manner of
shapes and hues, even so God manifests in me out of Himself a hundred
thousand forms of sense and perception; and I behold the forms of all
beauteous and lovely ones and their loves, and harmonies, and the
forms of all intelligible things, maidens of Paradise and palaces and
running water and other marvels beyond all reckoning. I contemplate
these forms, that so much beauty appears arrayed within me; God shows
me every form that I desire, and I see that those all become visible
ut of the part of me. And I saw that God had made to appear a hundred
thousand fragrant herbs, rose and rose-garden, jasmine yellow and
white, and had converted the parts of me into a rose-bower Then God
squeezed all those and made them into rose-water; out of its sweet
perfume He created maidens of Paradise, and mingled all the parts of
me with them. So I saw in truth that all lovely forms are the form of
the fruit of God, and all of these delights come to me from God even
in this present world.

If they say, 'Do you see God, or do you not see?' I answer, 'Of myself
I do not see, for "Thou shalt not see Me" (Koran VII: 143). But when
He shows Himself, what can I do not to see?

--Ma`ârif-e Bahâ'u'd-dîn Walad, Chapter 1, literal translation
--translated by A.J. Arberry as "Mystical Moments" in "Aspects of
Islamic Civilization: As Depicted in the Original Text," Allen &
Unwin, 1964, pp. 227-229

--------------

Show the true way (Qur'an 1:6)
I have been given a taste for what is beautiful. Like milk running
through my body, the gates open. I wear a blue robe woven of six
directions with watercolor images flowing over the cloth, a thousand
kinds of flowers, yellow jasmine, wild iris. Orchard corridors,
handsome faces on the street, I am composed of this beauty, the attar
of pressed plants, rose oil, resinous balsam: live essence, I am the
intelligent juice of flowers.

--version by Coleman Barks based on a literal translation by John
Moyne
-- "The Drowned Book: Ecstatic and Earthly Reflection of Bahauddin the
Father of Rumi,"
HarperSanFrancisco, 2004, p. 1

*************

I was seated. I said, 'Wherewithal shall I busy myself?' God inspired
me, saying, 'I gave thouness to thee for this purpose, that when thou
becomes distraught [[khîra]] in Me, and thy heart is weary of My
nearness, thou mayest gaze upon thyself and become busy with thyself.'
I said, 'Then there are two existents: one God, and one myself. If I
gaze upon God, I become distraught; and if I gaze upon myself, I
become confused [[fikâr]]. Perchance I should offer up myself.'

I gaze upon God, saying, 'O God, Thou hast set before me this broth of
being, with all its filth and sourness, a nauseating morsel. It is
this that troubles me. Take this away from me, that Thy comfort, O
God, may emerge out of the veil. With such a morsel how can I find
happiness? Let me gaze only upon this self of mine: God has given me
this in order that I may offer it up.' And I weep, and I consider its
state, what it will do in the moment of giving up the ghost and how it
will die.

I saw that little by little my meditation diminished, and sleep began
to overcome me. I said, 'Perchance this is because I am not making an
effort.' So I return to meditating, until I fall asleep. When I am
asleep, it is as though I resemble a tree in that I am in the earth.
If when sleeping I am unaware, it is as though I lift my head up from
the earth. When I gaze a little upon myself, it is as though I grow
tall. When I gaze with my eyes and move with my body, it is as though
branches are sprouting from me. When I make a greater effort with all
my heart to meditate, it is as though I am producing clusters of
flowers. When I utter on my tongue the remembrance of God, it is as
though I am bearing fruit. So veil on veil is removed; the more effort
I make, the more marvellous are the things that seem to emerge out of
me; as though all these things are in the mouth of not-being, and not-
being has placed its mouth on my mouth.
--Ma`ârif-e Bahâ'u'd-dîn Walad, from Chapter 6, literal translation
--trans. by Arberry, pp. 235-236

------------
I was sitting, wondering what I should do, when I received this
revelation: Open your heart. Feel the closeness with God. Look inside
yourself. Tend the awareness there.

Which led me to think, There are two entities here, God and myself.
God, the dazzling mystery; me, the confused mixture of dead and bitter
thatI must suffer through to reach God.

Tangled in these thoughts, I get drowsy. In sleep I become a night-
silent tree, rootedin nonbeing. As I wake the tree puts forth branches
and leaves. Eyesight returns; limbs move in the air. My heart feels
like flowers opening along a branch. Prayer expands to become fruit,
and nonbeing is the taste of language in my mouth.
--version by Barks, based on a translation by Moyne, pp. 4-5

**********
COMMENTS: Bahauddin Walad did not say, in the first selection, "I am
the intelligent juice of flowers". And he did not say, in the second
selection, "Prayer expands to become fruit". Rather, he said, "When I
utter on my tongue the remembrance of God, it is as though I am
bearing fruit." [chûn ba-Zikr ba-zabân bar mê-ây-am, gô-î (ke) mîwa
bêrûn mê-âr-am] He did not say, "nonbeing is the taste of language in
my mouth." Rather, he said, "as though all these things are in the
mouth of not-being, and not-being has placed its mouth on my
mouth." [în hama-râ gô-î ke dar dahân-e `adam-ast wa `adam dahân bar
dahân-e man nehâda-ast, wa 'llâhu a`lam]

Ibrahim

[Dar-al-Masnavi] RE: rumi pantheistic or islamic

2010-11-23T11:12:00.000-03:00

Dear Ibrahim,

How joyful to receive your very relevant answer, in the form of your e-mail, to the questions I posed to you.

Whereas I asked, what about the parallels between Islamic and non-Islamic representations of the relation between the One and the many, you informed me very clear about the Islamic view through the very insightful examples from many authors, as well as - what I hoped for – from the likes of Professor Chittick. How great you have helped me in the latter regard, I thank you very much for your illuminating notes and references!

I have the feeling that for me my question(s) in a certain sense have changed by and through reading your remarks. Because your answer is filled with the same reverential tone (perhaps J even somewhat more reverential, but that is another case or question) as Rumi’s when he is filled with love and reverence for his Beloved.

And from which I conclude that what ‘I’ seek is indeed – infinitely – ‘bigger’ than ‘my’ being can bear but which fact does not have to frighten ‘me’ because at the moment I give up my intellectual (and probably other) pretensions by acknowledging my being just a reflection and not Substance Itself (for a moment assuming a non-personal language would be adequate), I can enjoy the joy of experiencing unity as given to ‘me’, but in which ‘me’ is only the receiver and reflector of ‘my’ Essence (I know that some Islamic mystics dared to say “My Essence” and to me they were not by definition untrue regarding experiential or essential reality, only they were perhaps at the limit of what language can truthfully express dependent on what kind of ears are listening to it …; I mean this not as contrarian to your very helpful examples of presumptuous affirmations).

But before I continue with all of which you remind me, I thank you from my heart for your inspiring and uplifting reaction to my post and questions. I am heartened and strengthened in seeking ‘truth’ not in a shallow but in a real way.

Intellectually there might stay some questions and topics for further research and exchange but this will evolve as time goes forward.

Be sure that I will take time to digest your remarks and to read the literature you so kindly advise me.

Sincerely you, let me thank you again and wish you all the best, not the least in reacting to questions in this wonderful forum.

Your

Boudewijn

Boudewijn Koole

Driebergen, the Netherlands

[Dar-al-Masnavi] Re: rumi pantheistic or islamic

2010-11-21T03:34:00.000-03:00

Dear Boudewijn,

In regard to the discussion about pantheism, there is an interesting
footnote in an article about R.A. Nicholson in "Mawlana Rumi Review,"
Volume 1, 2010, pp. 42-43. A distinction is made between "theomonism"
and pantheism, in terms of the phrase used to summarize the mysticism
of Ibnu 'l-`Arabi (which is not in his writings), "Oneness of
Being" [wahdat al-wujuud]. The author quotes from an article by
Professor Leonard Lewisohn on "Sufism" in "Encyclopedia of
Philosophy" (2006, vol. 7, p. 307):

"'Theomonism' is a term which, according to Leonard Lewisohn,
approximates most closely the concept of wahdat-i wujud or 'Oneness of
Being', which pre-modern Muslim and Orientalist scholarship associates
with the name of Ibn `Arabi.… Lewisohn emphatically cautions against
confusing theomonism with pantheism. The latter term was first used in
1705 by John Toland to articulate a doctrine with ancient antecedents
which, according to Alasdair MacIntyre, 'essentially involves two
assertions: that everything that exists constitutes a unity and that
this all-inclusive unity is divine'.… Interest in pantheism among
leading intellectuals of the age reached its peak in the first half of
the nineteenth century, as new scientific discoveries put in question
traditional religious dogmas, without eliminating the dominance of the
religious worldview in society. Rightly or wrongly, pantheism was seen
as a common bond among free-thinking philosophers and mystics from
antiquity to the present, hence Orientalist sought evidence of it in
Sufism as well. Lewisohn, however, emphasizes the essential difference
between the Sufi notion of wahdat al-wujud and the concept of
pantheism applied by many Orientalists to the poetic contemplations of
Rumi: 'In this view [wahdat al-wujud] God is identical to created
beings in His manifestation, but completely separate and distinguished
from them in their essence, so there is no substantial continuity
between God and creation. All living beings participate with God
through the theophany of His divine Names (the Living, the Speaking,
the Hearing, the Omniscient, and so on), for we are all manifestations
of one Light - the orifices of being through which His illumination is
shone.'"

Ibrahim

[Dar-al-Masnavi] Re: rumi pantheistic or islamic

2010-11-21T02:49:00.000-03:00

Dear Boudewijn,

Thanks for the thoughtful letter. My understanding of the three
Abrahamic religions is that they express a "modified dualism" of
Creator and creation and that the mystics of the three religions
describe spiritual experiences of the transcendence of this
separation, which they called "union with God". I say "modified
dualism" to make a distinction with "dualism", which historically
manifested in a Zoroastrian form (the eternal power of Good versus the
eternal power of Evil) and Gnosticism (eternal Spirit viewed as good
versus eternal Matter viewed as evil), and which is a heresy in the
view of the three religions.

In the view of many, Muslim mystics have had the most advanced
understanding (compared to Christian and Jewish mystics) of the issues
involved with "union" and "separation". The words "union with God" are
understood as a metaphor for "nearness to God", for in accordance with
Revelation, God Most High has no partners and does not incarnate in,
or unite with, a human form [Huluul]. From a mystical point of view,
here can be no "uniting with God" [ittiHaad], who is Eternally One,
because a "part", which was never truly separate from the Whole,
cannot become "united" with the Whole which it never left. This was
the teaching of Ibnu 'l-`Arabi, who taught that everything in creation
is the reflection (and not "emanation") of God's infinite Attributes.
He taught the importance of a balanced view of the transcendence and
imminence of God. He wrote that some prophets emphasized the imminence
of God within the creation in an age when the transcendence of God
above the creation was over-emphasized; and vice-versa. Some verses in
Qur'an refer to Divine immanence (God is "closer to you than your
jugular vein," "whichever way you turn there is the Face of God"),
others to transcendence ("...there isn't anything like Him"), and one
verse refers to both ("He is the Outward [al-Zaahir] and the Inward
[al-baaTin]").

You asked if Schimmel, Chittick, or Lewis wrote about similar issues
(which you described in different terms). Chittick wrote about Mawlana
Rumi's teaching about form [Suurat] and meaning, significance,
spiritual reality [ma`naa] in a section entitled, "The Illusion of
Dichotomy":

"Form and meaning are inextricably connected: form derives from
meaning and meaning manifests itself as form. Since the two are the
outward and inward aspects of a single reality, each is important in
its own way. But for most people, the danger lies in giving too much
importance to form and not understanding that it derives its existence
and significance from meaning."
--"The Sufi Path of Love: The Spiritual Teachings of Rumi," p. 24

Direct talk of a "non-dualistic" relationship to God is rather alien
for Muslim mystics: on the face of it, it seems arrogant and
presumptuous; it has led in the past to some deviant sectarianism ("if
everything is God, then the difference between good and evil is an
illusion"; "if I'm already one with God, then I don't need to pray,
because there is no Other toward whom to pray").

Muslim mystics approach this differently:

"Only when man's ego is truly obliterated and annihilated may he
properly say 'I.' But then he is not saying it, for his attributes
have been replaced by God's Attributes. At this stage of subsistence
in God man truly 'carries the Trust' and becomes God's viceregent on
earth, the full and conscious manifestation of His Being. But when a
man says 'I' before reaching this station, he is affirming the
existence of his own self. Even if he is a believer he is saying, 'I
exist and God exists.' But this contradicts the shahaadah, which
states that 'There is no reality but the Real.' Since 'I-ness' is a
reality, man's I-ness is unreal. In truth 'There is no I but I.' But
here it is no longer man's 'I.' It is God's 'I.' As long as man's ego
and selfhood subsists, he is an unbeliever and an idolator, for he
continues to affirm--in practice if not in theory-- that there are two
real existents, two 'I's.'"
--Chittick, "The Sufi Path of Love," p. 191

Chittick then quotes from Rumi: "With God, two I's cannot find
room..." (Fihi Ma Fihi, 24-25/36), "What is our 'we' when Thou sayest
'I'?" (Divan, 3349-50, plus two more pages of examples.

Ibrahim

On Sep 29, 1:21 am, "Boudewijn Koole" <b.ko...@bk-books.eu> wrote:
> Dear Reema, dear Ibrahim,
>
> I am just a very interested reader of Rumi and of these messages. My
> training has been in (Christian) theology and in philosophy and in the
> history of spirituality. Now I am nearly retired as free lance writer, busy
> to keep my website BK-Books.eu <http://www.bk-books.eu/bk.html> in order.
> There I published my few English and mostly Dutch reviews of works and texts
> in the mentioned areas. Among them about the Dutch translations of Rumi
> which recently appeared and which are very good, in the sense that they are
> well informed with and good explication (mostly from other writings of
> Rumi!) and that they sound truthfully.
>
> Your question and answer about pantheism is very interesting, not only
> because of the implications you at first should expect, and which you wrote
> about already. But also because of further implications implied in them.
>
> To my sincere experience, we cannot adequately describe the difference
> between 'God as all-encompassing source and goal of all there is' and 'God
> as different from his creation' because even as we write this down, we are
> part of what we try to describe. So what we describe can never be (only)
> objective. To my sincere knowledge, this is related to a misunderstanding in
> Western, even in Islamic thinking that there are instances which should be
> able to decide which is objectively true, or objectively true according to a
> set of truths of one religion, f.e. Islam or Christianity.
>
> Although this at first seems not a pleasant fact to accept, we may discern
> that Eastern philosophies and religions, f.e. (Mahayana) Buddhism and parts
> of Hinduism, Taoism and other Asian streams of thinking like Tibetan,
> Chinese, Korean and Japanese Zen-Buddhism) have tried to tackle this problem
> by recognizing the subjectivity of our speaking about the most fundamental
> realities, including the creation of the world, its future, our roles,
> etcetera including ourselves as - and about the way in which! - we speak
> about them. They try to avoid this by avoiding what they call 'dualistic
> ways of speaking' and promote something they call 'non-dualism' which is as
> much a conscious attitude as a prescribed objective, controllable set of
> rules for language. They speak in metaphors, so to say, and say that we
> cannot go further than that, apart from where our metaphors are the
> expression of the reality (but where should be the judge to decide when this
> is the case?). So they are careful to let the decision to the only
> acceptable judge which there is, namely reality itself, without in advance
> naming it or deciding that it is this or that objectively.
>
> To my best knowledge Rumi is very Islamic, but in his great wisdom also
> shows traces of something of the non-dualism I spoke about. Because very
> often he says something in very realistic terms and then implicates that
> they were metaphors and also very often says exactly the contrary of what
> you would expect, but which we as hearers or readers then experience as
> confirmation of the depth of his experience of the Most High, or of his
> Beloved. In this respect to me he seems comparable with other writers within
> the religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, which writers also do show
> non-dualistic tendencies.
>
> I hope I have not disappointed you with these notes in this message. It's
> just my experience with reading the great Rumi, very Islamic and very
> recognizably humanely spiritual. Interestingly there is an explanation for
> the differences between the monotheistic religions and the mentioned Asian
> ones in that the first ones have from the beginning a strong dualism between
> the one God and everything else which is his creation. But this inherent
> dualism (dualism understood as the opposition between 'things' being
> unbridgeable) is of course something debatable: everything in our three
> monotheistic religions has to do with bridgeing this difference! In history
> we have often seen that after expressions of less dualistic views and
> metaphors (what could be more non-dualistic than the metaphor of the
> Beloved?!) other more orthodox writers stressed the point that orthodoxy
> should be maintained and that the less dualistic views of some poets were in
> reality very orthodox. But this is like beginning from the start in the
> first place, which is of course what all of us do and experience: so is our
> lives and cultures as human people, may God help us to stay conscious of our
> greatnesses as well as our limitations!
>
> For me this brings with it some more questions to respond to: f.e. the
> relation between religious and cultural suppositions. Because to me it is
> clear that when the Christian God is spoken of as male (although according
> to the Bible also being female, how otherwise could - according to his Gods
> image! - man be created as man and woman as is written in the Genesis
> creation story), this has something to do with historical changing cultural
> situations and views.
>
> Another urgent question to me is the social attitude of Rumi, his views
> about the social order (relation between rich and poor, relation between
> rulers and people) about which I have not been able to find and read much
> until this moment.
>
> But it is not my goal here to pose just my questions, but first of all to
> express my sincere estimation for Rumi and his readers. I am touched by
> Rumi's jest for love.
>
> If I have other questions, I will not hesitate to ask them. For example, do
> you know if the Schimmel, Chittick and Lewis or other commentator already
> have written about what I asked and wrote here above?
>
> Isn't there some forms of Islamic poetry which shows more traces of this
> 'non-dualism' like poets in India and Pakistan or Indonesia? Kabir f.e.?
>
> What are your own thoughts about the aspects I wrote about above? Do you
> have comparable questions or knowledge or do you know if there are
> publications about these?
>
> Perhaps, if you would be so kind, you can help me in these respects, even
> little information will be most welcome to me.
>
> I thank you for your kind attention to my words, and wish you all a fruitful
> further reading and interpreting the much loved words of the great Rumi. I
> learn a lot from the hints about all recent work done to bring them to light
> still better. Thanks very much for them. I greet you with much respect!
>
> Boudewijn Koole, Driebergen, Netherlands
>
> <mailto:b.ko...@bk-books.eu> b.ko...@bk-books.eu
>
> image001.gif
> < 1KViewDownload

[Dar-al-Masnavi] Re: pantheism or monism in Maulana's poetry?

2010-10-01T21:06:00.000-04:00

Dear Reema,
Wa `alaykuma 's-salâm,

Thank you for quoting the verses that you questioned, which contain
good examples of the consequences of sloppy versions of Rumi; how, by
being made "more radically mystical" they can be attractive to
Westerners--yet such versions can cause Muslim readers to have a bad
impression of Rumi's poetry. The book you have quoted from is a
collection of popularized versions of Rumi claimed to be "An Anthology
of Translations." However, none of the authors you quoted can read
Persian or have translated from Persian texts; rather their renderings
are re-Englishings based on the real translations from Persian by
scholars (none of whom are credited--such as Nicholson and Arberry);
rather, the version-makers take credit as the "Rumi translators." And
their distortions can be very offensive to Muslim readers (for
examples, see: http://dar-al-masnavi.org/corrections_popular.html).

1) You quoted from p. 103, which is not from the Mathnawi, but was re-
Englished from an unreferenced translation from Turkish by Ergin of a
ghazal poem:

This universe, which resembles a flag,
Moves all the time.
Your heart sees only the flag,
Your soul thinks air is moving it.

But the one who knows
How air is a helpless creature,
Accepts that everything is nothing but God.
--translated (from Turkish) by Nevit Ergin, "Mevlana Celaleddin Rumi:
Divan-i Kebir Meter 3," 1995, pp. 114-115

shuqqa-ye `alam `âlam har chand ke mê-raqS-ad
chashm-e tô `alam bîn-ad, jân-e tô hawâ dân-ad

w-ân kas ke hawâ-râ ham dân-ad ke che bê-châra-st
joz HaZrat-e illâ 'llâh, bâqî hama lâ dân-ad

شُقَّهٔ علم عالم هر چند که می رقصد
چشمِ تو علم بیند جانِ تو هوا داند

وانکس که هوا را هم داند که چه بیچاره ست
جز حضرتِ إِلَّا لله باقی همه لا داند

Although the world is dancing (like) the rag of a flag, your eyes see
(only) the flag (but) your soul knows the wind (is moving it).

And the person who also knows the wind, how helpless it is, knows that
all (is) not permanent except the majestic presence of "except God".*
--Mawlana Rumi's ghazal no. 616
*A reference to "(There is) no divinity except God" (Qur'ân 47:19)
[lâ 'ilâha 'illâ 'llâh]. Also a reference to "All that is upon (the
earth) will pass away, but the Face of your Lord will abide, full of
Majesty and Glory" (Qur'ân 55:26-27). Equivalent to "(There is) no
permanence except God" [lâ bâqî 'illâ 'llâh].

COMMENTS:
What the translator from Persian to Turkish (Golpinarli) wrote is not
known to me, but clearly someone changed "all (is) not permanent
except God" to "everything is nothing but God." But "laa baaqii" means
"not enduring, lasting, remaining." Here is "sufi pantheism"--injected
into the poem by the versioner.

2) You quoted from pages 104-5 (correct citation missing--Mathnawi V:
2020-49, I: 1126-27):

"In its inmost consciousness, not through any doctrine, it is one with
the light." (Math. V: 2038)

Here is an accurate translation by Nicholson: This "I," O presumptuous
meddler, was "He" (God) in the inmost consciousness, through oneness
with the Light, not through (belief in) the doctrine of
incarnation." [în anâ hû bow-ad dar sirr, ay fuZûl/ z-ittihâd-e nûr,
na az râ'y-e Hulûl]
ین اَناَ هو بُوَد در سرّ، ای فُضول
زِاتّحادِ نور، نه از رایِ حُلول

COMMENT:
Here you can see that the version, by omitting the word "incarnation",
dilutes Rumi's meaning. Here, Mawlana Rumi is careful about his
justification of the ecstatic utterance attributed to the sufi master
Mansur Hallaj: "I am God" [anâ 'l-Haqq--"Haqq" was used to mean "God,"
especially in Persian sufism]. Mawlana denies the heretical doctrine
of incarnation of God into human form [Hulûl], but says it was God's
"I" speaking from the deepest level of consciousness. This is not as
radical as it sounds: "for We are nearer to him [man] than (his)
jugular vein" (Qur'ân 50:16) has been interpreted by sufis to mean, by
extension: "for We are closer to him than (his) very self." And the
Hadîth, "And when I [= God] love him [= My (saintly) servant], I am
his hearing with which he hears, his seeing with which he sees, his
hand with which he sees, and his foot with which he walks"--has been
interpreted to mean, by extension, "and his speech by which he
speaks." Although Mawlana may appear to be saying that a created form
of light can be one with Divine Light, he is speaking through poetic
metaphors that should not be interpreted too literally as indicating
"pantheism".

3) You quoted a poem of 21 lines from page 110, a version by Harvey
that appears to be an amplification of three verses from Mathnawi I:
678-79, 681: "If ten lamps are present in (one) place, each differs in
form from another. To distinguish without any doubt, the light of
each, when you turn your face towards their light is impossible.... In
things spiritual there is no division and no numbers; in things
spiritual there is no partition and no numbers." (trans. by Nicholson)

COMMENT:
Almost all of the words in this "translation" are by Harvey, an
example of what he has called (more honestly than most version-makers)
"re-creations of Rumi". Mawlana does not teach here that physical
light equals Divine Light, but that there is unity in the spiritual
world that differs from what we experience in the physical world of
multiplicity.

Ibrahim

--------------------------