This weblog is dedicated to Dar-al-Masnavi.org discussion board, Dr Ibrahim Gamard's website for Rumi's works. To join the discussion board, click on the related link on the right side or at the bottom of this page.
Apologies are due to any of you who have tried to order the book during the past month. A glitch has been fixed that made the book appear as "presently out of stock" on Amazon.com and other sites.
Please help with publicity by sending the above link to any of your friends or acquaintances whom you think may be interested in buying the book. It is available only on the Internet so far.
I worked for 22 years on this book, together with an Afghan scholar of classical Persian sufi texts.
The first two verses you asked about are genuine and famous, from the Masnavi.
However, the ghazal you asked about (Cross and Christian) is not a genuine Rumi poem, as it is not in his Divan-e Kabir (and certainly not in the earliest manuscripts) and therefore rejected by scholars, but is also a famous "Rumi poem" that is often quoted. I will only send you the first verse. It is from a book published in 1898 by the British scholar, Nicholson, who thought it was an authentic Rumi poem at the time (even though he acknowledged that it was not in any copies of Divan manuscripts in his possession). Another ghazal (the man of God) in this book is also not genuine. But the most famous "Rumi poem" in his book (that also was not in his manuscript copies), that is constantly quoted but not genuine (I am not a Muslim), is fraudulent, as it has the deliberately fake ending verse: "O Shams-i Tabriz, I am so drunken in this world/ That except of drunkenness and revelry I have no tale to tell."
The Wikipedia article contains a number of errors. The two verses from the Masnavi below are examples of Mawlana Rumi's authentic universality, attained by reaching the depth of Islamic mysticism through the path of Love. Other non-authentic poems are often quoted as part of a modern "Rumi mythology", according to which he started out as a Muslim scholar and then became a universal mystic who was tolerant of, and knowledgeable about, other religions; that after he was transformed by Shams, he became free of any particular religion. However, I have found no evidence (in the earliest Persian and Arabic sources) that he knew anything more about other religions than he would have gained through a traditional Muslim education.
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The lover's ailment is separate from all other ailments: love is the astrolabe of the mysteries of God. (1:110, trans. Nicholson 1926) علّتِ عاشق زِ علّتها جداست عشقْ اصطرلابِ اسرارِ خداست
The religion of Love is apart from all religions: for lovers, the (only) religion and creed is--God. (2:1770, trans. Nicholson, 1926)) ملّتِ عشق از همه دینها جداست عاشقان را ملّت و مذهب خداست
------------------------
I was on that day when the Names were not.… Cross and Christians from end to end, I surveyed; He was not on the Cross. I went to the idol temple, to the ancient pagoda; no trace was visible there. من آن روز بودم که اسما نبود
What is to be done O Moslems? for I do not recognise myself. I am neither Christian, nor Jew, nor Gabr, nor Moslem. چه تدبیر ای مُسَلمانان که من خود را نمیدانم نه ترسا نه یهودم من نه گبرم نه مسلمانم
The man of God is drunken without wine مردِ خدا مست بُوَد بی شراب
Ibrahim
---------------------------
On May 30, 3:53 pm, nowhere <anga...@yahoo.com> wrote: > dear Readers > i need your help about some of rumi's poems below . > i live in hamburg germany and in my free times i read rumi's poems and > i love them . > i have red these poems in this addresshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumi > > In other verses in the Masnavi, Rumi describes in detail the universal > message of love: > > Lover's nationality is separate from all other religions, > The lover's religion and nationality is the Beloved (God). > > The lover's cause is separate from all other causes > Love is the astrolabe of God's mysteries. > > I searched for God among the Christians and on the Cross and therein I > found Him not. > I went into the ancient temples of idolatry; no trace of Him was > there. > I entered the mountain cave of Hira and then went as far as Qandhar > but God I found not. > With set purpose I fared to the summit of Mount Caucasus and found > there only 'anqa's habitation. > Then I directed my search to the Kaaba, the resort of old and young; > God was not there even. > Turning to philosophy I inquired about him from ibn Sina but found Him > not within his range. > I fared then to the scene of the Prophet's experience of a great > divine manifestation only a "two bow-lengths' distance from him" but > God was not there even in that exalted court. > Finally, I looked into my own heart and there I saw Him; He was > nowhere else. > > i am in search of the original persian texts of these poems if you can > give me or tell me another address where i can get these poems i think > you have given me the best gift in my all life and i will be really > thankfull from you i am waiting eagerly to hear from you ... > yours sincerely > sohail aryan
dear Readers i need your help about some of rumi's poems below . i live in hamburg germany and in my free times i read rumi's poems and i love them . i have red these poems in this address http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumi
In other verses in the Masnavi, Rumi describes in detail the universal message of love:
Lover's nationality is separate from all other religions, The lover's religion and nationality is the Beloved (God).
The lover's cause is separate from all other causes Love is the astrolabe of God's mysteries.
I searched for God among the Christians and on the Cross and therein I found Him not. I went into the ancient temples of idolatry; no trace of Him was there. I entered the mountain cave of Hira and then went as far as Qandhar but God I found not. With set purpose I fared to the summit of Mount Caucasus and found there only 'anqa's habitation. Then I directed my search to the Kaaba, the resort of old and young; God was not there even. Turning to philosophy I inquired about him from ibn Sina but found Him not within his range. I fared then to the scene of the Prophet's experience of a great divine manifestation only a "two bow-lengths' distance from him" but God was not there even in that exalted court. Finally, I looked into my own heart and there I saw Him; He was nowhere else.
i am in search of the original persian texts of these poems if you can give me or tell me another address where i can get these poems i think you have given me the best gift in my all life and i will be really thankfull from you i am waiting eagerly to hear from you ... yours sincerely sohail aryan
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---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Charles Upton<cupton@qx.net> Date: Sun, May 24, 2009 at 7:23 AM Subject: new Rumi book To: daralmasnavi.org@gmail.com
Sufi-Dari Books
(An imprint of Sophia Perennis)
Announces the Publication of
The Quatrains of Rumi
(Beginning of Marketing Campaign: May 20, 2009):
Rubâ'îyât-é
Jalâluddîn Muhammad Balkhî-Rumî
ISBN 978-1-59731-450-3; $25.95, £19.50
Translated by
Ibrâhîm W. Gamard
and
A. G. Rawân Farhâdî
COMPLETE TRANSLATION WITH PERSIAN TEXT,
ISLAMIC MYSTICAL COMMENTARY,
MANUAL OF TERMS, AND CONCORDANCE
The first complete English translation of the Quatrains -- over 700 pages -- based on the Persian of the original, complete, and uncorrupt Forûzânfar edition –
translated with close attention to Rumi's idiomatic usage,
with the collaboration of a scholar from Afghanistan,
whose native Persian remains close to Rumi's own
The "version-makers" of the poetry of Jalâluddîn Rumî have helped to make him perhaps today's most popular poet in the English language.
But they have not served his intended meaning with equal zeal,
often portraying him as a "universal" mystic who had somehow "transcended" Islam, even though his celebrated Mathnavi has been called "the Qur'an in the Persian tongue." Ibrâhîm W. Gamard
and A. G. Rawân Farhâdi have labored to set the record straight,
and to demonstrate that Mawlana's universality is inseparable
from his Islam -- from the depth of his Islam.
For more information, contact Sufi-Dari Books/ Sophia Perennis at:
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I like these quotes but don't they convey something different from the original quote?
"Be as you appear or appear as you are" seems, to me, to be about making the inner and outer selves one; in other words about sincerity (ikhlas) and as such reflecting the Divine tawhid. Does that make sense?
You can also find the following on the Internet, attributed to Khwâja Mu`înuddîn Cheshtî: "Humility like the earth, generosity like the river, affection like the sun."
Or, in another form: "The lover of God should be charitable like the river, generous like the sun and hospitable like the earth."
Ibrahim
On May 16, 2:50 am, Iljas Baker <iljasba...@gmail.com> wrote: > I believe I have read something similar attributed to Hazrat Ali. Can anyone > confirm or disconfirm this. Salaam, Iljas >
> On Sat, May 16, 2009 at 2:08 AM, <daralmasnavi....@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Finally tracked down the origins of this "Rumi quote," that couldn't > > be found in the Masnavi or the Divan: "Be as you appear or appear as > > you are." And the distinction between the two clauses was always > > unclear. There is a calligraphy of it in Ottoman Turkish in the > > Mevlana Museum in Konya, Turkey. > > > A Turkish scholar friend who teaches at a university in Konya recently > > confirmed that it is not in Mevlana Rumi's works, but was composed in > > Turkish by a Turkish commentator of Masnavi, and that the origin of > > this particular quote is from the sayings attributed to Mevlana in the > > collection of stories about his life written (in Persian) by Aflâkî > > ("Manâqibu 'l-`ârifîn"). > > > The quote appears on the Internet as the last verse of a Turkish poem > > (with each verse ending, "gibi ol": "Be like...") called the "Seven > > Advices of Mevlana": > > > Be like a river in generosity and helping others > > Be like the sun in compassion and remorse > > Be like the night in covering the faults of others > > Be like a dead person in anger and hatred > > Be like the black earth in humility and modesty > > Be like an ocean in loving tolerance > > Either appear as you are or be as you appear > > [Ya oldughun gibi görün, ya göründüghün gibi ol] > > > The origin of the last verse is from a story from Aflaki in which > > Mevlana showed kindness toward a prostitute. After a prominent man > > questioned the appropriateness of a great man such as Mevlana talking > > kindly to such a person, > > > "Mowlânâ replied: That woman presently goes about with a single color > > and she displays herself as she is without deception. If you're a man, > > you also do the same and abandon the quality of possessing two colors > > (hypocrisy) so that your exterior becomes the same color as your > > interior. If your exterior and interior do not become the same, > > whatever you do is false and vain." > > --Aflâkî, "The Feats of the Knowers of God," translated by John > > O'Kane, 2002, p. 384 > > > farmûd ke: Hâliyâ ô dar yakî rangî mê-raw-ad, wujûd-râ chon-ân-ke hast > > bê-zarq mê-nomây-ad. agar mard-î tô nêz chon-ân shaw, w-az dô-rangî > > bêrûn ây, tâ Zâhir-e tô ham-rang-e bâTin shaw-ad. wa agar Zâhir wa > > bâTin-e tô yak-sân na-shaw-ad, bâTil-o `âTil gard-ad. > > --Aflâkî, 3:542, Vol. 1, p. 555 > > > The key line appears in a 1959 Turkish translation: > > "Bu kadin oldughlu gibi hareket ediyor ve oldughlu gibi riyasiz > > görünüyor. Egher sen de erkeksen onun gibi ol. > > > "That woman is (inwardly) as she acts (outwardly), and she appears > > (outwardly) as she is (inwardly) without hypocrisy. Even if you are a > > man, be like her." > > > Ibrahim
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You can also find the following on the Internet, attributed to Khwâja Mu`înuddîn Cheshtî: "Humility like the earth, generosity like the river, affection like the sun."
Or, in another form: "The lover of God should be charitable like the river, generous like the sun and hospitable like the earth."
Ibrahim
On May 16, 2:50 am, Iljas Baker <iljasba...@gmail.com> wrote: > I believe I have read something similar attributed to Hazrat Ali. Can anyone > confirm or disconfirm this. Salaam, Iljas > > On Sat, May 16, 2009 at 2:08 AM, <daralmasnavi....@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Finally tracked down the origins of this "Rumi quote," that couldn't > > be found in the Masnavi or the Divan: "Be as you appear or appear as > > you are." And the distinction between the two clauses was always > > unclear. There is a calligraphy of it in Ottoman Turkish in the > > Mevlana Museum in Konya, Turkey. > > > A Turkish scholar friend who teaches at a university in Konya recently > > confirmed that it is not in Mevlana Rumi's works, but was composed in > > Turkish by a Turkish commentator of Masnavi, and that the origin of > > this particular quote is from the sayings attributed to Mevlana in the > > collection of stories about his life written (in Persian) by Aflâkî > > ("Manâqibu 'l-`ârifîn"). > > > The quote appears on the Internet as the last verse of a Turkish poem > > (with each verse ending, "gibi ol": "Be like...") called the "Seven > > Advices of Mevlana": > > > Be like a river in generosity and helping others > > Be like the sun in compassion and remorse > > Be like the night in covering the faults of others > > Be like a dead person in anger and hatred > > Be like the black earth in humility and modesty > > Be like an ocean in loving tolerance > > Either appear as you are or be as you appear > > [Ya oldughun gibi görün, ya göründüghün gibi ol] > > > The origin of the last verse is from a story from Aflaki in which > > Mevlana showed kindness toward a prostitute. After a prominent man > > questioned the appropriateness of a great man such as Mevlana talking > > kindly to such a person, > > > "Mowlânâ replied: That woman presently goes about with a single color > > and she displays herself as she is without deception. If you're a man, > > you also do the same and abandon the quality of possessing two colors > > (hypocrisy) so that your exterior becomes the same color as your > > interior. If your exterior and interior do not become the same, > > whatever you do is false and vain." > > --Aflâkî, "The Feats of the Knowers of God," translated by John > > O'Kane, 2002, p. 384 > > > farmûd ke: Hâliyâ ô dar yakî rangî mê-raw-ad, wujûd-râ chon-ân-ke hast > > bê-zarq mê-nomây-ad. agar mard-î tô nêz chon-ân shaw, w-az dô-rangî > > bêrûn ây, tâ Zâhir-e tô ham-rang-e bâTin shaw-ad. wa agar Zâhir wa > > bâTin-e tô yak-sân na-shaw-ad, bâTil-o `âTil gard-ad. > > --Aflâkî, 3:542, Vol. 1, p. 555 > > > The key line appears in a 1959 Turkish translation: > > "Bu kadin oldughlu gibi hareket ediyor ve oldughlu gibi riyasiz > > görünüyor. Egher sen de erkeksen onun gibi ol. > > > "That woman is (inwardly) as she acts (outwardly), and she appears > > (outwardly) as she is (inwardly) without hypocrisy. Even if you are a > > man, be like her." > > > Ibrahim
Finally tracked down the origins of this "Rumi quote," that couldn't be found in the Masnavi or the Divan: "Be as you appear or appear as you are." And the distinction between the two clauses was always unclear. There is a calligraphy of it in Ottoman Turkish in the Mevlana Museum in Konya, Turkey.
A Turkish scholar friend who teaches at a university in Konya recently confirmed that it is not in Mevlana Rumi's works, but was composed in Turkish by a Turkish commentator of Masnavi, and that the origin of this particular quote is from the sayings attributed to Mevlana in the collection of stories about his life written (in Persian) by Aflâkî ("Manâqibu 'l-`ârifîn").
The quote appears on the Internet as the last verse of a Turkish poem (with each verse ending, "gibi ol": "Be like...") called the "Seven Advices of Mevlana":
Be like a river in generosity and helping others Be like the sun in compassion and remorse Be like the night in covering the faults of others Be like a dead person in anger and hatred Be like the black earth in humility and modesty Be like an ocean in loving tolerance Either appear as you are or be as you appear [Ya oldughun gibi görün, ya göründüghün gibi ol]
The origin of the last verse is from a story from Aflaki in which Mevlana showed kindness toward a prostitute. After a prominent man questioned the appropriateness of a great man such as Mevlana talking kindly to such a person,
"Mowlânâ replied: That woman presently goes about with a single color and she displays herself as she is without deception. If you're a man, you also do the same and abandon the quality of possessing two colors (hypocrisy) so that your exterior becomes the same color as your interior. If your exterior and interior do not become the same, whatever you do is false and vain." --Aflâkî, "The Feats of the Knowers of God," translated by John O'Kane, 2002, p. 384
farmûd ke: Hâliyâ ô dar yakî rangî mê-raw-ad, wujûd-râ chon-ân-ke hast bê-zarq mê-nomây-ad. agar mard-î tô nêz chon-ân shaw, w-az dô-rangî bêrûn ây, tâ Zâhir-e tô ham-rang-e bâTin shaw-ad. wa agar Zâhir wa bâTin-e tô yak-sân na-shaw-ad, bâTil-o `âTil gard-ad. --Aflâkî, 3:542, Vol. 1, p. 555
The key line appears in a 1959 Turkish translation: "Bu kadin oldughlu gibi hareket ediyor ve oldughlu gibi riyasiz görünüyor. Egher sen de erkeksen onun gibi ol.
"That woman is (inwardly) as she acts (outwardly), and she appears (outwardly) as she is (inwardly) without hypocrisy. Even if you are a man, be like her."
Ibrahim
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Finally tracked down the origins of this "Rumi quote," that couldn't be found in the Masnavi or the Divan: "Be as you appear or appear as you are." And the distinction between the two clauses was always unclear. There is a calligraphy of it in Ottoman Turkish in the Mevlana Museum in Konya, Turkey.
A Turkish scholar friend who teaches at a university in Konya recently confirmed that it is not in Mevlana Rumi's works, but was composed in Turkish by a Turkish commentator of Masnavi, and that the origin of this particular quote is from the sayings attributed to Mevlana in the collection of stories about his life written (in Persian) by Aflâkî ("Manâqibu 'l-`ârifîn").
The quote appears on the Internet as the last verse of a Turkish poem (with each verse ending, "gibi ol": "Be like...") called the "Seven Advices of Mevlana":
Be like a river in generosity and helping others Be like the sun in compassion and remorse Be like the night in covering the faults of others Be like a dead person in anger and hatred Be like the black earth in humility and modesty Be like an ocean in loving tolerance Either appear as you are or be as you appear [Ya oldughun gibi görün, ya göründüghün gibi ol]
The origin of the last verse is from a story from Aflaki in which Mevlana showed kindness toward a prostitute. After a prominent man questioned the appropriateness of a great man such as Mevlana talking kindly to such a person,
"Mowlânâ replied: That woman presently goes about with a single color and she displays herself as she is without deception. If you're a man, you also do the same and abandon the quality of possessing two colors (hypocrisy) so that your exterior becomes the same color as your interior. If your exterior and interior do not become the same, whatever you do is false and vain." --Aflâkî, "The Feats of the Knowers of God," translated by John O'Kane, 2002, p. 384
farmûd ke: Hâliyâ ô dar yakî rangî mê-raw-ad, wujûd-râ chon-ân-ke hast bê-zarq mê-nomây-ad. agar mard-î tô nêz chon-ân shaw, w-az dô-rangî bêrûn ây, tâ Zâhir-e tô ham-rang-e bâTin shaw-ad. wa agar Zâhir wa bâTin-e tô yak-sân na-shaw-ad, bâTil-o `âTil gard-ad. --Aflâkî, 3:542, Vol. 1, p. 555
The key line appears in a 1959 Turkish translation: "Bu kadin oldughlu gibi hareket ediyor ve oldughlu gibi riyasiz görünüyor. Egher sen de erkeksen onun gibi ol.
"That woman is (inwardly) as she acts (outwardly), and she appears (outwardly) as she is (inwardly) without hypocrisy. Even if you are a man, be like her."
Per all the terms used in Islamic sufism for the self, they really do have different meanings according to the context. The first place to start is the use of such terms in the Holy Qur'an. Often, "nafs" simply means "self" ('I do not consider my self [nafs-ii] sinless" Q. 12:53); other times it means "soul" (".. a Day when one soul [nafs-un] will not be able to compensate a thing for (another) soul [nafs-in]" Q. 2:48). Sometimes it is used in a negative context ("the soul commanding to evil" [nafsa 'l-ammaara] Q.12:53); sometimes in a positive context ("O tranquil soul" [nafsu 'l-muTma'inna] Q.89:27). Sometimes it is a place where the Signs of God may be witnessed ('in your selves" [anfusi-kum] Q.51:21), and therefore the possibility of mystical experiences and insights.
The Spirit [ruuH] is sometimes used to mean a type of Grace sent down to the believer by God ("and strengthened them with a spirit" [ruuH- in] Q.58:22; "the Spirit [ar-ruuH] (only comes) by the command of my Lord" Q.7:85).
There are several terms for "heart" in the Qur'an, which tends to be used as a deeper and concealed aspect of human beings ("For God is the Knower of what is contained in the hearts" [Suduur] Q.3:154); "he approached his Lord with a sound heart" [qalb-in saliim] Q37:84).
In a well-known Hadiith, "self" [nafs] is used in a negative sense meaning "base egotism that leads astray," in a similar sense as the "soul that commands to evil": "Your worst enemy is your (base) self [nafsu-ka] that is between your two sides."
When sufism spread into Persian-speaking lands, the Arabic terms continued to be used, but sometimes "jaan" was used to translate "ruuH" or "nafs"; more often "del" was used to translate "qalb" (or heart). The human "essence" ("dhaat" in Arabic") was translated as "jawhar" (literally, "jewel", with a secondary meaning of "substance" or "essence").
As for Mawlana Rumi's use of such terms, one of the best elucidations was done by Prof. William Chittick in his excellent 1983 book, "The Sufi Path of Love: the Spiritual Teachings of Rumi," pp. 27-41. For example, he said that "spirit" [ruuH, jaan] is used by Rumi on four levels: the animal spirit, the human spirit, the angelic spirit (or spirit of Gabriel), and the Muhammadan spirit (or spirit of the saints). "In Arabic and Persian, the term nafs is sometimes synonymous with the terms ruuH or jaan, i.e, 'spirit.' Rumi himself occasionally uses the term to refer to the higher levels of the spirit. But most often he employs the term nafs to refer to the animal spirit." "The ultimate center of man's consciousness, his inmost reality, his 'meaning' as known by God, is called the 'heart' (dil, qalb). "...the famous saying of the Prophet concerning the heart: 'God says, "My heavens and My earth encompass Me not, but the heart of my gentle, believing, and meek servant does encompass Me"'...The heart of the saint 'contains' God, while the heart of the ordinary man is mired in water and clay." "Rumi doess not distinguish clearly and absolutely among the heart, the spirit and the intellect. Each of these pertains to man's meaning, as opposed to his form. Perhaps we can say that the spirit is the broadest in scope, embracing the whole of man's inward reality; the term 'intellect' lays stress upon the spirit's power of discernment; and the word 'heart' emphasizes consciousness and especially God-consciousness. But each of these terms is sometimes employed synonymously with one or both of the others and each denotes a multileveled reality."
But, in my view, the terms "spirit" and "soul" denote aspects of consciousness that the ordinary intellect cannot understand via words and concepts; rather, it is something that can only really be understood via direct experience, beyond the conceptual mind. Is it not like someone asking for a description of the difference between two spices, say, cinnamon and clove, who has never tasted them? How can it help such a person to understand by making distinctions such as, "One has more of a nutty flavor and the other more of a flower blossom flavor"?
Ibrahim
On Apr 28, 7:19 am, Arsalaan <dha...@juno.com> wrote: > Dear Sheikh Ibrahim and discussion members. > Please correct me if I am mistaken: > It appears to me, that translators choose different words to > translate Nefs (self?), Ruh (spirit?), and Jan (essence?) depending > on the context or other reasons. > When reading in English I have no sense of the Persian word being > used. Not knowing the Persian word leaves me unable to better > understand what Mevlana is teaching. Yes, I sometimes refer to Sheikh > Ibrahim's transliterations - (Thank you Ibrahim Efendi). This is very > helpful, but I see "soul" so much in English translation, that I am > confused. > Would you please define or otherwise comment on these words (nefs, > ruh, jan) as used by Mevlana. Any guidance in understanding would be > greatly appreciated. > Peace > Arsalaan
Dear Sheikh Ibrahim and discussion members. Please correct me if I am mistaken: It appears to me, that translators choose different words to translate Nefs (self?), Ruh (spirit?), and Jan (essence?) depending on the context or other reasons. When reading in English I have no sense of the Persian word being used. Not knowing the Persian word leaves me unable to better understand what Mevlana is teaching. Yes, I sometimes refer to Sheikh Ibrahim's transliterations - (Thank you Ibrahim Efendi). This is very helpful, but I see "soul" so much in English translation, that I am confused. Would you please define or otherwise comment on these words (nefs, ruh, jan) as used by Mevlana. Any guidance in understanding would be greatly appreciated. Peace Arsalaan
In response to Sheikh Gamard's prompt for discussion group members to address Shawn's Question, I post my own, limited understanding of these beautiful verses by Maulana:
"The tears of our eyes are running because of our separation from thee; sigh after sigh is going (up) from the midst of our souls."
I recall a saying which I believe was of Mansur Hallaj (unsure about this), in which Hallaj states that God's mercy is His nearness to us, and God's wrath is His distance from us. And, though God is always near to us ("We are nearer to him than (his) jugular vein"), we are not always of the realization or acknowledgment of His closeness, precedence, and will in our lives (and all life, for that matter). And, when we are in real acknowledgment of this reality, we act accordingly, both in outward habit and inward reality. And, may I add, only those who long for greater closeness (a greater acknowledgment and realization on their own parts, as well as a giving over of their personal wills to the greater will of God) will be teary eyed, lamenting their own known and sensed separation from God. Disbelievers do not cry; not, perhaps, until they are judged (as we all will be), at which time they may realize their error, but will be lacking in means to redress their own past ignorance).
"A babe does not contend with its nurse, but it weeps, although it knows neither evil nor good."
As has been indicated to us elsewhere, children are all born in a state of submission, and are only swayed from submission by their environment. And, as I mentioned above, only those who are in submission lament their separation from their Lord do to having sensed that they were once so near (as a child in the womb) and are now so much farther… Had we never known such closeness to God, all humans would not secretly yearn for this closeness, as closeness to God is the most powerful and fulfilling of experiences, such as a child when it is satisfied completely, in all ways, while in the womb. And, may it be added, mothers, as well, experience the pain of separation after birth, thus God wishes us always to be close to Him (like children in the womb), as we all, albeit, often secretly, or unknowingly, wish nearness to Him. Furthermore, "it knows neither evil nor good" is indicative of the state of the child, submission, in which, to my understanding, dualism disappears, and only nonexistence (selflessness) in submission remains; this being indicative of the state of Adam and Eve before being cast out from the Garden.
Moreover, for us to lament, we must have developed some degree of closeness/submission in order to allow the will of God to penetrate through us; thus, our lamentation is truly His, as our wills are increasingly naughted by His. See below:
"We are as the harp and thou art striking (it with) the plectrum (playing on it): a lamentation is not from us, it is thou that art making lamentation."
When we are in submission to God, we give over ourselves to God, as a child in the womb gives over its own personal volition and independence to that of its mother's. Thus, God cries through the believer, the one who is in a state of submission. And, now, my understanding of these verses expands yet again…
"We are as the flute, and the music in us is from thee; we are as the mountain, and the echo in us is from thee. We are as pieces of chess (engaged) in victory and defeat: our victory and defeat is from thee, O thou whose qualities are comely! Who are we, O thou soul of our souls, that we should remain in being beside thee?"
In a state of complete submission to God, we are naughted by him (niistii), and, so far as I understand it (perhaps incorrectly), in full submission, there is no one, no personal volition, no personified attributes, only God. Thus, Mansur Hallaj's infamous statement, "Ana- l Haqq." This, as I understand it, did not indicate that Hallaj was God, but that he was no longer, and only God was (and is, and ever has been). But, so far as my understanding of Rumi's interpretation of Hallaj's statement, Rumi understands Hallaj's statement as Hallaj was proclaiming complete deference to God, absolving himself of all worth, and making known that only God existed to him. So, either Hallaj 'dissolved and was no longer,' or entered into a complete state of deference while still remaining Hallaj, or otherwise… Only God knows.
And, since we are navigating this point, I would like to kindly ask Sheikh Gamard to elucidate for me, as well as all others present in this discussion group, the distinction between the Hindu mystical experience/interpretation of Dying into God and the Islamic interpretation of Fanaa. I believe that this is perhaps the defining feature which discriminates between Eastern and Abrahamic religions, and may help us understand the reality of Hallaj, as well as the direction to which Rumi taking us.
"We and our existences are (really) non-existences: thou art the absolute Being which manifests the perishable (causes phenomena to appear). We all are lions, but lions on a banner: because of the wind they are rushing onward from moment to moment. Their onward rush is visible, and the wind is unseen: may that which is unseen not fail from us! Our wind (that whereby we are moved) and our being are of thy gift; our whole existence is from thy brining (us) into being."
The corporeal world appears to be moving of its own volition, but there is an unseen mover, the prime reality upon which all is contingent (God). If God wills, it is so; if God wills not, it is not. For an intensely thorough analysis of this reality, consult Hikmat al Ishraq, Suhrawardi's most well known work.
Here, I'd like to add that if anything I have stated above has misrepresented Rumi's Islam, or your own sense and experience of Islam, or of any diin, please understand that what I have stated is solely my own limited understanding, interpretation, and experience… Forgive me.
Thank you for asking about these special verses by Mawlana Rumi. Haven't answered your question about the themes of the verses you asked about. Rather, am hoping that other members (among the 60+) in this discussion group will offer their interpretations. Meanwhile, am trying to facilitate this by providing helpful material.
You should know that Rumi did not compose a poem entitled "The Unseen Power". Rather, someone (Arberry?) selected verses 599 and 603 from Book I of Masnavi and added the title.
As for the second group of verses you asked about, this is a complete poem (but Arberry added a title to it, "Descent"). To read the Persian correctly, it helps to know the poetic meter, which is hazaj maHdhûf: (mu-FAA-`IY-LUN mu-FAA-`IY-LUN fa-`UU-LUN) [oXXX oXXX oXX]
Below is another translation of Ghazal 1509 by Nevit Ergin, from Golpinarli's Turkish translation. It also has some loss of meaning because of going from Persian to Turkish to English, rather than directly from Persian to English, and also because of the translator's deficits in English (for example, in the last line, a "pencil;" broken in the last line, rather than a pen).
Ibrahim
----------
I traveled from town to town, but I haven't seen a city like the city of love. At the beginning, I didn't appreciate the value of that city, and because of my ignorance I suffered very much in exile. I left the land of sugar cane and kept eating grasses in the pasture like animals. Why did I prefer leeks and onions to manna or quail like the people of Moses? Anything I hear in this world besides the sound of love, is nothing but the noise of drums. Because of that noisy drum, I dropped from the universe of wholeness to the world of the temporary. I was a pure soul, just a soul among souls. I was flying like a heart without wings and feet. I was tasting from that wine which gives grace and smiles to people without lips and throats, just like a rose. A voice came from love, "O soul," he said, "Get going. I created a world of troubles. Go there." I begged and kept saying, "I don't want to go there." I cried and tore my shirt. I was scared to go there. Also, I was afraid of not wanting to come back from there. "Go, O soul," he said. "Wherever you are, I'm closer to you than your own carotid artery." I was persuaded with all kinds of his charms and trickery. He could move worlds with that charm. I was nothing, not even seen by eyes. I was kicked out of there and led down this road. I may have been saved if I had stayed there. I would tell you how to go there again, but when I came here to tell, he broke my pencil. --translated by Nevit Ergin, "Mevlânâ Celâleddîn Rumi: Dîvân-i Kebîr, Volume 18", 2002, pp. 76-78 ----"Even as now I shrink to be gone from here, even so thence to part I did fear" is correct, not, "I was scared to go there. Also, I was afraid of not wanting to come back from there." ---"I would tell you how to go there again, but when I came here to tell, he broke my pencil' is not very good. "But ah, my pen is broke and I am dumb" is not very good either, because of the forced rhyme. More accurate: I would say how you may arrive (back) there, but (my) pen is broken--when I reached here.
For interpretation, it helps to know what the original Persian texts are, in order to check for accuracy of the given translation or interpretive version, as well as to better understand the verses. The first verses you asked about are from the first book of Masnavi (see below), and need to be read in the context of the verses that precede and follow the ones in which you are interested.
The second quote you posted is Mawlana Rumi's ghazal no. 1509 (this was found by me, thanks to a DVD that sister Behnâz sent to me from Iran, "Emissary of the Sun", which has the entire Persian text of Rumi's Divan with excellent search capacity (such as to find in this poem the words "neck's vein" = hablu 'l-warîd" from Qur'an 50:16, where God says about Man: "We are nearer to him than (his) jugular vein". The translator was A.J. Arberry, 'Persian Poems', an Anthology of verse translations edited by A.J.Arberry, Everyman's Library, 1972. Because it is rhymed, there is some loss of original meanings.
safar kard-am, ba-har shahré davîd-am chô shahr-e `ishq man shahrê na-dîd-am سفر کردم بهرشهری دویدم چو شهر عشق من شهری ندیدم
Ibrahim
----------------------
The tears of our eyes are running because of our separation from thee; sigh after sigh is going (up) from the midst of our souls. A babe does not contend with its nurse, but it weeps, although it knows neither evil nor good. We are as the harp and thou art striking (it with) the plectrum (playing on it): a lamentation is not from us, it is thou that art making lamentation. We are as the flute, and the music in us is from thee; we are as the mountain, and the echo in us is from thee. We are as pieces of chess (engaged) in victory and defeat: our victory and defeat is from thee, O thou whose qualities are comely! Who are we, O thou soul of our souls, that we should remain in being beside thee? We and our existences are (really) non-existences: thou art the absolute Being which manifests the perishable (causes phenomena to appear). We all are lions, but lions on a banner: because of the wind they are rushing onward from moment to moment. Their onward rush is visible, and the wind is unseen: may that which is unseen not fail from us! Our wind (that whereby we are moved) and our being are of thy gift; our whole existence is from thy brining (us) into being. --Masnavi, Book I: 596-605, translated by R. A. Niholson, 1926
----------------------- On Apr 23, 6:54 am, Shawn <Stejani...@hotmail.com> wrote: > Hi Guys, > > Can someone please help with the summary or the central idea of the > following two peoms? > > Regards, > Shawn > > THE UNSEEN POWER > > We are the flute, our music is all Thine; > We are the mountains echoing only Thee; > And movest to defeat or victory; > Lions emblazoned high on flags unfurled- > They wind invisible sweeps us through the world. > > DESCENT > > I made a far journey > Earth's fair cities to view, > but like to love's city > City none I knew > > At the first I knew not > That city's worth, > And turned in my folly > A wanderer on earth. > > From so sweet a country > I must needs pass, > And like to cattle > Grazed on every grass. > > As Moses' people > I would liefer eat > Garlic, than manna > And celestial meat. > > What voice in this world > to my ear has come > Save the voice of love > Was a tapped drum. > > Yet for that drum-tap > From the world of All > Into this perishing > Land I did fall. > > That world a lone spirit > Inhabiting. > Like a snake I crept > Without foot or wing. > > The wine that was laughter > And grace to sip > Like a rose I tasted > Without throat or lip. > > 'Spirit, go a journey,' > Love's voice said: > 'Lo, a home of travail > I have made.' > > Much, much I cried: > 'I will not go'; > Yea, and rent my raiment > And made great woe. > > Even as now I shrink > To be gone from here, > Even so thence > To part I did fear. > > 'Spirit, go thy way,' > Love called again, > 'And I shall be ever nigh thee > As they neck's vein.' > > Much did love enchant me > And made much guile; > Love's guile and enchantment > Capture me the while. > > In ignorance and folly > When my wings I spread, > From palace unto prison > I was swiftly sped. > > Now I would tell > How thither thou mayst come; > But ah, my pen is broke > And I am dumb.
Can someone please help with the summary or the central idea of the following two peoms?
Regards, Shawn
THE UNSEEN POWER
We are the flute, our music is all Thine; We are the mountains echoing only Thee; And movest to defeat or victory; Lions emblazoned high on flags unfurled- They wind invisible sweeps us through the world.
DESCENT
I made a far journey Earth's fair cities to view, but like to love's city City none I knew
At the first I knew not That city's worth, And turned in my folly A wanderer on earth.
From so sweet a country I must needs pass, And like to cattle Grazed on every grass.
As Moses' people I would liefer eat Garlic, than manna And celestial meat.
What voice in this world to my ear has come Save the voice of love Was a tapped drum.
Yet for that drum-tap From the world of All Into this perishing Land I did fall.
That world a lone spirit Inhabiting. Like a snake I crept Without foot or wing.
The wine that was laughter And grace to sip Like a rose I tasted Without throat or lip.
'Spirit, go a journey,' Love's voice said: 'Lo, a home of travail I have made.'
Much, much I cried: 'I will not go'; Yea, and rent my raiment And made great woe.
Even as now I shrink To be gone from here, Even so thence To part I did fear.
'Spirit, go thy way,' Love called again, 'And I shall be ever nigh thee As they neck's vein.'
Much did love enchant me And made much guile; Love's guile and enchantment Capture me the while.
In ignorance and folly When my wings I spread, From palace unto prison I was swiftly sped.
Now I would tell How thither thou mayst come; But ah, my pen is broke And I am dumb.
Came across a beautiful passage last night from, the "Discourses of Shams-e Tabrizi" [Maqâlât-e Shams], that begins, "The intended aim..." and have translated it from Persian and placed it after another quote from Shams ("Regarding me and Mawlana..." in the following article article: http://dar-al-masnavi.org/rumi-shams.html
Ibrahim
------------------
"(Regarding) me and Mawlânâ, if (the time for the ritual prayer) becomes lost for us, without (our) intending (it during) a time of being occupied, we are discontent because of that and we make up (the missed prayer) alone (together). And when I don't go (on) the day of Jum`ah (the day of the Friday congregational prayers), there is sadness for me, (feeling) that, "Why didn't I join that (gathering) with this spiritual reality [within me]? Although it is not real distress, yet it is (there)." --from "Maqâlât-e Shams-e Tabrîzî," pp. 742-43 (see William Chittick's translation of selections of this important work of Shams' "Discourses," not previously available in English, "Me and Rumi: the Autobiography of Shams-i Tabrizi," (Fons Vitae, 2004, p. 80). [NOTE: The interpretation in parentheses, "(the time for the ritual prayer)" is correct because the word translated as "make up (the missed prayer)" [qaZâ] is a technical term in Islam for a ritual prayer that is missed during one of the five daily prayer times and is done afterwards.]
"The intended aim [maqSûd] of the world's existence is the encounter of two friends (of God) [mulâqât-e dô dôst bow-ad], when they face each other (only) for the sake of God [jehat-e khodâ], far distant from lust and craving [dûr az hawâ]. The purpose is not (for) bread, soup with bread crumbs, butcher, or the butcher's business. It is such a moment as this, when I am tranquil in the presence of Mawlânâ [ba khidmat-e mawlânâ âsûda'êm]." --from "Maqâlât-e Shams-e Tabrîzî," p. 628 (see Refik Algan's translation of selections from this work, from Turkish with final Englishing by Camille Helminski, "Rumi's Sun: The Teachings of Shams of Tabriz", 2008, pp. 269-70.)
I'm from the UK, brother. But my nationality is Pakistani. Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 10:39:25 +0500 Subject: [Dar-al-Masnavi] Re: Sufi Master or Pir From: kashifpk47@gmail.com To: dar-al-masnavi@googlegroups.com
I'm looking for a Pir or Sufi Master that is initiated in the Mevlevi order, that I can follow, does anyone know where I can contact such a person?
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As-salâmu `alaykum, Thank you very much for the video link to the Mevlevi shaykh in Konya. He is my friend, Nadir Karnibüyükler Efendi, with whom I spent most of last Ramadan in Konya. His Qur'anic Arabic is excellent (he memorized the Qur'an earlier in his life), but I don't think he speaks much Arabic. He is a wonderful shaykh who gives dervish training to his students (who are mainly his semazens at the present time). The man interviewed in the white shirt is his semazenbashi (or "chief of the whirlers"), Ali. There is a nice sequence of semazens whirling in the "Shems mosque", formerly a Mevlevi center [tekke] in Konya that contains a (green covered) tomb claimed to be that of Shams-i Tabrizi. The mosque where the semazens are whirling is the historic Kapu Jami, in Konya, where Mevlana Rumi prayed.
Ths Mevlevi shaykh who speaks the best Arabic is Hüseyin Erek Efendi, who is an imam and Hâfizu 'l-Qur'ân at the Shishli mosque in the Shishli district of Istanbul.
Ibrahim
---------
On Apr 17, 2:24 am, allnall <wb...@web.de> wrote: > Wa aleikum selam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatu, > > at least I saw a documentary about a Mevlevi-Dede in Konya, he seems > to be a humble person and so far trustworthy. > I recorded it and put on youtube > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdMThWSg59A&feature=channel_page > > If you a really hard into that, - and I would appreciate it, because > there are many around who do the whirling and do not know even that > really... : ), what about then with the inner tradition- you may go to > ask Mevlana Sheikh Nazim about a true Dede. He knows, but you must be > really firm in this case, because you will get the answer that you > deserve, - maybe no answer, that depends on the level of your > sincerity. > You know that Mevlana is from one side of the family desecendent of > Rumis family branch qs. > Best whishes to you und success on your way. > selams!
Thank you very much for the information. I appreciate it alot. I would like to know which ones speak Arabic and English? Also, is there any sort of contact number or address? I study Arabic so I would be able to communicate with Arabic speakers to some extent.
Again thanks alot for the help
wassalaam
> Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 21:02:44 -0700 > Subject: [Dar-al-Masnavi] Re: Sufi Master or Pir > From: daralmasnavi.org@gmail.com > To: dar-al-masnavi@googlegroups.com > > > Dear Husayn, > Wa `alaykuma 's-salâm, > > Due to the repression of sufi organizations in Turkey since 1925, the > Mevlevi tradition has weakened, so there are few shaykhs--most are in > Turkey and speak only Turkish (though some also speak French and > Arabic, and one speaks good English). It is not widespread in the > world like other tariqats. You can find a list of Mevlevi leaders is > in the following article: > > http://dar-al-masnavi.org/leader-of-mevlevis.html > > Ibrahim > > ----------------- > > > > On Apr 15, 10:27 am, "huss...@hotmail.com" <huss...@hotmail.com> > wrote: > > Salaam Alaikum Wa Rahamatullah > > > > I'm looking for a Pir or Sufi Master that is initiated in the Mevlevi > > order, that I can follow, does anyone know where I can contact such a > > person? > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Dar-al-Masnavi" group. To post to this group, send email to dar-al-masnavi@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to dar-al-masnavi+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/dar-al-masnavi?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
If you a really hard into that, - and I would appreciate it, because there are many around who do the whirling and do not know even that really... : ), what about then with the inner tradition- you may go to ask Mevlana Sheikh Nazim about a true Dede. He knows, but you must be really firm in this case, because you will get the answer that you deserve, - maybe no answer, that depends on the level of your sincerity. You know that Mevlana is from one side of the family desecendent of Rumis family branch qs. Best whishes to you und success on your way. selams!
I'm looking for a Pir or Sufi Master that is initiated in the Mevlevi order, that I can follow, does anyone know where I can contact such a person?
--~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Dar-al-Masnavi" group. To post to this group, send email to dar-al-masnavi@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to dar-al-masnavi+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/dar-al-masnavi?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
Due to the repression of sufi organizations in Turkey since 1925, the Mevlevi tradition has weakened, so there are few shaykhs--most are in Turkey and speak only Turkish (though some also speak French and Arabic, and one speaks good English). It is not widespread in the world like other tariqats. You can find a list of Mevlevi leaders is in the following article:
On Apr 15, 10:27 am, "huss...@hotmail.com" <huss...@hotmail.com> wrote: > Salaam Alaikum Wa Rahamatullah > > I'm looking for a Pir or Sufi Master that is initiated in the Mevlevi > order, that I can follow, does anyone know where I can contact such a > person?
Have finally updated the Links section on the website. There were quite a few dead links that have been removed or corrected. Please have a look at it.
Here are 18 rhyming couplets (in honor of Mawlana's first 18 couplets in Masnavi) by an 18th century Mevlevi poet in Ottoman Turkish (with a high proportion of Persian and Arabic words):
Tried to send the Masnavi story to you several times via the Google group, but it didn't work. Please email me directly because I don't have your complete email adress:
wa alaikum asalam asalam alaikum Thanks a lot bro n please send it soon i m very thankful to u may Allah bless u for ur efforts....
On Feb 11, 11:27 am, Azher <westboy7...@yahoo.com> wrote: > The poem in Book No 2 of Mathnawi of Maulana Rumi is it complete or > not if not can somebody post the full text of the poem that ll b a > favor to me... > Allah Hafiz > Keep The Good Work Up > May Allah reward u for ur efforts > Ameen.....
This story is 10 pages long, so will send it to you privately.
Ibrahim ------------------
On Feb 11, 11:27 am, Azher <westboy7...@yahoo.com> wrote: > The poem in Book No 2 of Mathnawi of Maulana Rumi is it complete or > not if not can somebody post the full text of the poem that ll b a > favor to me... > Allah Hafiz > Keep The Good Work Up > May Allah reward u for ur efforts > Ameen.....
The poem in Book No 2 of Mathnawi of Maulana Rumi is it complete or not if not can somebody post the full text of the poem that ll b a favor to me... Allah Hafiz Keep The Good Work Up May Allah reward u for ur efforts Ameen.....
Can't translate from Latin, but we have a Latin scholar reviewing the translations from Persian. My view is that these passages are best understood in the context of Mawlana's wisdom teaching rather than excerpted separately. Therefore, instead of attaching longer sections of the relevant Masnavi passages for these two cases, I'll send them to you privately.
Ibrahim
-----------------
On Feb 1, 12:48 am, sipko den boer <sipkodenb...@gmail.com> wrote: > salam, > > Why do you think it is in Latin? > > Sipko > > On Sun, Feb 1, 2009 at 5:25 AM, John Brozak <jbro...@telus.net> wrote: > > > Greetings > > > Could someone please be so kind as to provde me with English > > transaltions of the two sentences from Book IV? > > > The first is line 2583: > > Nicholson renders the whole line into Latin as; > > > Nec libido et fututio et coitus maritalis adeo deficient ut feminis > > taedium sit propter languorem tuum. > > > the second is line the last few words of 2490 > > > Like the Ethiopian who saw in the mirror that his face was ugly, et in > > speculum cacavit > > > Thanks & Blessings to whomever translates these. > > > HU Haqq > > > John Jaan
Dear Ibrahim, I'm very grateful for quick your reply and for providing me with the translations. Best regards, Katayoun
On Feb 8, 3:11 pm, daralmasnavi....@gmail.com wrote: > Dear Katyoun, > > You can go to the Ergin-Foruzanfar Concordance on my website to check > for prior translations of ghazals in English:http://dar-al-masnavi.org/erg-foruz-concord.html > > A new edition of Arberry's' 400 ghazal translations ("Mystical Poems > of Rumi") will be available in a single volume in 4/09, with errors > and typos (there are many in the Second Selection)http://www.press.uchicago.edu/presssite/metadata.epl?mode=synopsis&bo... > > Below the Arberry trans. from Foruzanfar's Persian edition is Ergin's > trans. from Turkish. Since this is Vol. 18, his English is better, but > there is some loss because of going through Turkish first. His > translation has an extra verse (which I put in brackets), because > Golpinarli used the 1368 CE manuscript, on display in the Mevlana > Museum, Konya (which has the ghazals arranged into 23 plus meters). Am > hoping to get a copy of this MS (produced by Sobhânî) from Tehran > soon, and then hope to finish the Concordance (mostly done some years > ago by Dr. Susan Friedman). > > Ibrahim > ---------------- > > O gardener, gardener, autumn has come, autumn has come; see on > branch and leaf the mark, see the mark of heart-anguish. > O gardener, attend, give ear, hearken to the lament of the trees; on > every side a hundred tongueless ones, a hundred tongueless ones > bewailing. > Never without cause are eyes weeping and lips parched; no one without > heart-anguish is pale of cheek, pale of cheek. > In short, the raven of grief has entered the garden and is stamping > his feet, demanding in mockery and oppression, "Where is the rose > bower, where is the rose bower? > "Where is lily and eglantine? Where cypress and tulip and jasmine? > "Where the green-garmented ones of the meadow? Where the Judas tree, > where the Judas tree? > "Where are the nurses of the fruits? Where the gratis honey and > sugar? Every breast, every breast is dry of this flowing milk. " > Where is my sweet-voiced nightingale? Where is my cooing ringdove? > Where is the peacock fair as an idol? Where are the parrots, where are > the parrots?" > Like Adam having eaten a grain fallen from his abode, their crown and > fine robes have flown from this dazzling array, this dazzling array. > The rose bower constrained like Adam, alike lamenting and expectant, > since the Lord of Bounty said to them, "Do not despair. "40 > All the trees drawn up in ranks, black-robed, plunged in mourning, > leafless and sad and lamenting because of that trial. O crane and lord > of the village, at last return some answer; > "Have you gone into the depths or departed to heaven, to heaven?" > They replied, "Enemy raven, that water shall return to the streams, > the world will become full of scent even as Paradise, even as > Paradise." > O babbling raven, be patient three months more, till there arrive > despite you the festival of the world, the festival of the world. > Through the voice of our Seraphiel our lantern will become bright, we > shall become alive from the death of that autumn festival, that autumn > festival. 41 > How long this denial and doubt? Behold the mine of joy and salt; fly > to heaven like a manikin without a ladder, without a ladder! > The beastlike autumn dies, you stamp upon its grave; lo, the dawn of > fortune is breaking, O watchman, watchman! > O dawn, flll the world with light, drive afar these Hindus [of the > night], set free the time, recite a spell, recite a spell! 42 > O sweet-working sun, return to Aries, leave neither ice nor mud, > scattering ambergris, scattering ambergris. > Fill the rose bower with laughter, bring to life those dead ones, > make shining the concourse; ha, see what comes to sight. > The seeds are escaped from prison, we too from the corner of our > houses; the garden out of hidden places has brought a hundred > presents, a hundred presents. > The rose bower fills with beauties, fur coats are a drug on the > market, the cycle of time, the cycle of time is giving birth and > generating. > The crane is coming with his drooping wings over the palace, tall as > the sky, babbling as if to say, "Yours is the kingdom, O refuge in > need, O refuge in need!" > The nightingale enters playing the lute, and that dove cooing, the > other birds celebrate with song, youthful fortune, youthful fortune. > I am pregnant with this resurrection; I abandon the speech of the > tongue; the thoughts of my heart come not into the tongue, into the > tongue. > Silence! Listen, father, to the news from garden and birds: flying > arrowlike they have come from placelessness, from placelessness. > > --Rumi's Ghazal 1794 translated by Arberry,"Mystical Poems of Rumi: > Second Selection" (no. 223) > > 40: "Do not despair of God's mercy," Qur'an 39:33. > 41: For the angel Seraphiel, see Frst Selection, note on 71, verse 3. > In the pre-Islamic Iran Mehragân (autumn festival in honor of Mithra) > was as important as Naw-rûz, the beginning of the Persian calendar in > spring. > 42: Indians as well as black people symbolize the night. > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > You ask how I am. How do I know? You ask where I am and from whom > I came. How do I know? > You ask what I drank from that big glass to become so drunk. How > do I know?' > You ask what is on those lips that you talk so sweetly. How do I > know? > You ask, "In your life what did you see that's better than youth > and living?" How do I know? > I saw a fire like a fountain of life on his face. But what was > it? How do I know? > [I have been admiring his face for so many years, I asked, "Are > you body or soul?" How do I know?] > If I am you, then who are you? Are you this or that? How do I > know? > Who am I to think like that? Are you merciful and tender-hearted? > How do I know? > You are telling me I have dropped out, have sat along the way. > Are you the one who watches the road? How do I know? > Sometimes you make me a bow, sometimes an arrow. Are you the bow > or the arrow? How do I know? > What a happy moment is this that, "I offer you soul," you say. I > say, "You know better." How do I know? > Restlessly, I ask, "O Shems of Tebriz, are you like this or > that?" How do I know? > --Rumi's Ghazal No. 1544, translated into English (from the Turkish > translation of Golpinarli) by Nevit Ergin, "Mevlânâ Celâleddîn Rumi: > Dîvân-i Kebîr Volume 18, 2002, pp. 46-47 > > ------------------------------------- > On Feb 8, 7:16 am, Katayoun <katayoungouda...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Dear Friends, > > > I'm looking for any translations that might be available for Ghazal > > #1794 ( ey baaghebaan ey baaghebaan, aamad khazaan, aamad khazaan... ) > > and also Ghazal 1544 ( maraa gooee che saanee? man che daanam !... ) > > > Your help is greatly appreciated. > > > Warm wishes, > > Katayoun- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -
Below the Arberry trans. from Foruzanfar's Persian edition is Ergin's trans. from Turkish. Since this is Vol. 18, his English is better, but there is some loss because of going through Turkish first. His translation has an extra verse (which I put in brackets), because Golpinarli used the 1368 CE manuscript, on display in the Mevlana Museum, Konya (which has the ghazals arranged into 23 plus meters). Am hoping to get a copy of this MS (produced by Sobhânî) from Tehran soon, and then hope to finish the Concordance (mostly done some years ago by Dr. Susan Friedman).
Ibrahim ----------------
O gardener, gardener, autumn has come, autumn has come; see on branch and leaf the mark, see the mark of heart-anguish. O gardener, attend, give ear, hearken to the lament of the trees; on every side a hundred tongueless ones, a hundred tongueless ones bewailing. Never without cause are eyes weeping and lips parched; no one without heart-anguish is pale of cheek, pale of cheek. In short, the raven of grief has entered the garden and is stamping his feet, demanding in mockery and oppression, "Where is the rose bower, where is the rose bower? "Where is lily and eglantine? Where cypress and tulip and jasmine? "Where the green-garmented ones of the meadow? Where the Judas tree, where the Judas tree? "Where are the nurses of the fruits? Where the gratis honey and sugar? Every breast, every breast is dry of this flowing milk. " Where is my sweet-voiced nightingale? Where is my cooing ringdove? Where is the peacock fair as an idol? Where are the parrots, where are the parrots?" Like Adam having eaten a grain fallen from his abode, their crown and fine robes have flown from this dazzling array, this dazzling array. The rose bower constrained like Adam, alike lamenting and expectant, since the Lord of Bounty said to them, "Do not despair. "40 All the trees drawn up in ranks, black-robed, plunged in mourning, leafless and sad and lamenting because of that trial. O crane and lord of the village, at last return some answer; "Have you gone into the depths or departed to heaven, to heaven?" They replied, "Enemy raven, that water shall return to the streams, the world will become full of scent even as Paradise, even as Paradise." O babbling raven, be patient three months more, till there arrive despite you the festival of the world, the festival of the world. Through the voice of our Seraphiel our lantern will become bright, we shall become alive from the death of that autumn festival, that autumn festival. 41 How long this denial and doubt? Behold the mine of joy and salt; fly to heaven like a manikin without a ladder, without a ladder! The beastlike autumn dies, you stamp upon its grave; lo, the dawn of fortune is breaking, O watchman, watchman! O dawn, flll the world with light, drive afar these Hindus [of the night], set free the time, recite a spell, recite a spell! 42 O sweet-working sun, return to Aries, leave neither ice nor mud, scattering ambergris, scattering ambergris. Fill the rose bower with laughter, bring to life those dead ones, make shining the concourse; ha, see what comes to sight. The seeds are escaped from prison, we too from the corner of our houses; the garden out of hidden places has brought a hundred presents, a hundred presents. The rose bower fills with beauties, fur coats are a drug on the market, the cycle of time, the cycle of time is giving birth and generating. The crane is coming with his drooping wings over the palace, tall as the sky, babbling as if to say, "Yours is the kingdom, O refuge in need, O refuge in need!" The nightingale enters playing the lute, and that dove cooing, the other birds celebrate with song, youthful fortune, youthful fortune. I am pregnant with this resurrection; I abandon the speech of the tongue; the thoughts of my heart come not into the tongue, into the tongue. Silence! Listen, father, to the news from garden and birds: flying arrowlike they have come from placelessness, from placelessness.
--Rumi's Ghazal 1794 translated by Arberry,"Mystical Poems of Rumi: Second Selection" (no. 223)
40: "Do not despair of God's mercy," Qur'an 39:33. 41: For the angel Seraphiel, see Frst Selection, note on 71, verse 3. In the pre-Islamic Iran Mehragân (autumn festival in honor of Mithra) was as important as Naw-rûz, the beginning of the Persian calendar in spring. 42: Indians as well as black people symbolize the night.
You ask how I am. How do I know? You ask where I am and from whom I came. How do I know? You ask what I drank from that big glass to become so drunk. How do I know?' You ask what is on those lips that you talk so sweetly. How do I know? You ask, "In your life what did you see that's better than youth and living?" How do I know? I saw a fire like a fountain of life on his face. But what was it? How do I know? [I have been admiring his face for so many years, I asked, "Are you body or soul?" How do I know?] If I am you, then who are you? Are you this or that? How do I know? Who am I to think like that? Are you merciful and tender-hearted? How do I know? You are telling me I have dropped out, have sat along the way. Are you the one who watches the road? How do I know? Sometimes you make me a bow, sometimes an arrow. Are you the bow or the arrow? How do I know? What a happy moment is this that, "I offer you soul," you say. I say, "You know better." How do I know? Restlessly, I ask, "O Shems of Tebriz, are you like this or that?" How do I know? --Rumi's Ghazal No. 1544, translated into English (from the Turkish translation of Golpinarli) by Nevit Ergin, "Mevlânâ Celâleddîn Rumi: Dîvân-i Kebîr Volume 18, 2002, pp. 46-47
------------------------------------- On Feb 8, 7:16 am, Katayoun <katayoungouda...@gmail.com> wrote: > Dear Friends, > > I'm looking for any translations that might be available for Ghazal > #1794 ( ey baaghebaan ey baaghebaan, aamad khazaan, aamad khazaan... ) > and also Ghazal 1544 ( maraa gooee che saanee? man che daanam !... ) > > Your help is greatly appreciated. > > Warm wishes, > Katayoun
I'm looking for any translations that might be available for Ghazal #1794 ( ey baaghebaan ey baaghebaan, aamad khazaan, aamad khazaan... ) and also Ghazal 1544 ( maraa gooee che saanee? man che daanam !... )
On Sun, Feb 1, 2009 at 5:25 AM, John Brozak <jbrozak@telus.net> wrote:
Greetings
Could someone please be so kind as to provde me with English transaltions of the two sentences from Book IV?
The first is line 2583: Nicholson renders the whole line into Latin as;
Nec libido et fututio et coitus maritalis adeo deficient ut feminis taedium sit propter languorem tuum.
the second is line the last few words of 2490
Like the Ethiopian who saw in the mirror that his face was ugly, et in speculum cacavit
Thanks & Blessings to whomever translates these.
HU Haqq
John Jaan
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Have been working for the past few years, with the help of other scholars including a British scholar who is a consultant for Nicholson's publisher), on a translation of all the passages that Nicholson translated from Persian to Latin only (because he judged them to be obscene). The work is not finalized, but will send you privately what we currently have for the two passages you asked about. I'm not ready to share all of it--and I would not want a file spread about with all these translations together, because it could be used by anti-sufi writers to condemn Mawlana Rumi for being obscene, and so on. So you will need to wait for the remaining translations.
A friend has permission from Nicholson's publisher to produce a DVD of Nicholson's entire English translation and Persian text. There will be links to Nicholson's Latin words, as well as links to Nicholson's corrections that bring his translation (that is, of Books I, II, and the first part of III) into accord with the earliest manuscript of the Mathnawi. It is hoped that this DVD will be available in another year. My friend tells me that the British scholar (Alexander Morton) has been proofreading (slowly, during the past couple of years, in his spare time) the scanned text of the English translation, and is presently proofing Book VI.
Ibrahim
On Jan 31, 8:25 pm, John Brozak <jbro...@telus.net> wrote: > Greetings > > Could someone please be so kind as to provde me with English > transaltions of the two sentences from Book IV? > > The first is line 2583: > Nicholson renders the whole line into Latin as; > > Nec libido et fututio et coitus maritalis adeo deficient ut feminis > taedium sit propter languorem tuum. > > the second is line the last few words of 2490 > > Like the Ethiopian who saw in the mirror that his face was ugly, et in > speculum cacavit > > Thanks & Blessings to whomever translates these. > > HU Haqq > > John Jaan
May the blessings of Hazrat-e Mawlana's `urs (usually celebrated nowadays on the night of December 17th) be on all who love the wisdom and beauty of his poetry and his example of a Muslim life fully dedicated to the love of God and all creation!
I appreciated your response very much that's what I was looking for, but later I realised that what I initially said might be misunderstood. When I referred to "thoughts" about this issue I was thinking of thoughts related to Qur'an, Hadith, other Sufis etc rather than personal opinions. But I wrote with insufficient care. Please continue with Rumi's views about the fate of Pharaoh and sorry if I appeared ungrateful.
I agree with you that it isn't a topic worth discussing in itself. What is more relevant here is what Mawlana Rumi believed. And you had brought up the issue ("Regarding the ultimate salvation of every man, perhaps this idea can also be found in Mathnawi V, 1795-1855.... I'd
welcome your thoughts and Ibrahim's and others' on this idea of the ultimate salvation of everyone, according to Rumi or the Traditions or
Islam more generally. As far as I understand these verses just quoted
from Mathnawi, the fire of Hell is ultimately a purifying fire and not a punitive fire. Doesn't this contradict Al Qur'an?"
That's why I quoted the Qur'an, ahadiith, and some theology. Mawlana followed the Maatoridi school of Hanafi theology, but I don't know what the teaching of this school was on this subject.
Nicholson said in his commentary: "All souls have been brought into existence by Divine Mercy and will ultimately be saved". However this may be the result of excessively using the theosophy of Ibnu 'l-`Arabi in interpreting Masnavi. Are Rumi's views about the fate of Pharaoh relevant here?
Ibrahim
-----------
On Dec 12, 5:57 am, "Iljas Baker" <iljasba...@gmail.com> wrote: > Dear Ibrahim, > > Salaam. Thank you. > > No Mawlana doesn't directly deny that Hell is eternal. I am not so sure that > this is actually the theme here. It is interesting that the "ne'er do well" > in this passage does seem to have a spark of *iman *and for that he appears > to be called back. So perhaps this is not so much a > philosophical/theological passage but a passage which reminds us not to pass > judgement even over those who appear to be the most blatant wrongdoers. The > All Merciful can see what cannot be seen by Man. > > I don't believe it is meaningful for us to have an opinion on whether Hell > is eternal or not but it is meaningful to know that we don't know. Don't you > agree that certain kinds of ignorance are a great field where love can grow? > > Iljas >
> On 12/11/08, daralmasnavi....@gmail.com <daralmasnavi....@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Dear Iljas, > > Salaam, > > > You have raised an interesting issue, worth a new topic heading. > > Nicholsons' translation and commentary are posted below, per Mawlana's > > views on this subject in the Masnavi. He does not directly deny that > > Hell is eternal. However, a portion of Muslim scholars and sufis have. > > > "He will say: 'The Fire will be your dwelling-place: you will dwell > > therein for ever [khaalidiin], except as God willeth" (Qur'an 6:128, > > trans. by Yusuf Ali) "...save him whom Allah willeth (to > > deliver)." (trans. by Pickthall) "...unless God wills it > > otherwise." (trans. by Muhammad Asad) Footnote by M. Asad: "I.e., > > unless He graces them with His mercy.... Some of the great Muslim > > theologians conclude from the above and from the similar phrase > > occurring in 11:107 (as well as from several well-authenticated > > sayings of the Prophet) that--contrary to the bliss of paradise, which > > will be of unlimited duration--the suffering of the sinners in he life > > to come will be limited by God's mercy." (p. 193) From Glasse, "The > > Concise Encyclopedia of Islam": "Theologians make the distinction that > > both hell and paradise last for perpetuity (khuld) and not for > > eternity (abad), that is, that they have no limit or end, in the sense > > that they are indefinite temporarily. this distinction is necessary, > > for eternity is a quality that belongs to God alone.... However, most > > other theologians, particularly the school of al-Ash'ari, believe that > > if the person who entered hell was not an idolater, a mushrik, one who > > associated another reality with God, but a believer, then God could > > forgive his sins or non-conformities. This could take place > > immediately, aided perhaps by the intercession of the Divine > > Messengers whom whom the believer followed, despite his sins. Or the > > forgiveness could take place after a sojourn in hell in which the non- > > conformities had been 'burned away'. There is a Hadith which refers to > > this; 'He shall make men come out of hell after they have been burned > > and reduced to cinders'." (p. 152-3) > > > Ibrahim > > --------------------- > > > He drags his feet (lingers) on every road, that perchance he may > > escape from the pit (of Hell). > > 1818 He stands expectantly, keeping silence and turning his face > > backward in a (fervent) hope, > > Pouring tears like autumn rain. A mere hope--what has he > > except that? > > (So) at every moment he is looking back and turning his face to the > > Holy Court (on high). > > Then from God in the realm of light comes the command "Say ye to > > him, > > 'O ne'er-do-well destitute (of merit), > > 1822 What art thou expecting, O mine of mischief? Why art thou looking > > back, O giddy-headed man? Thy scroll (record) is that which came into > > thy hand, O offender against God and worshipper of the Devil. > > Since thou hast seen the scroll of thy deeds, why dost thou look > > back? Behold the reward of thy works! > > Why art thou tarrying in vain? Where is hope of light in such a > > (deep) pit as this? > > Neither outwardly hast thou any act of piety (to thy credit), nor > > inwardly and in thy heart an intention (to perform one); > > No nightly orisons and vigils, no abstinence and fasting in the > > daytime; > > No holding thy tongue to avoid hurting any one, no looking > > earnestly' > > forward and backward. > > --Book V:1817-28, translated by Nicholson, 1934 > > > The servant (of God) answers: "I am a hundred, hundred, hundred > > times > > as much as that which Thou hast declared. > > Verily, in Thy forbearance Thou hast thrown a veil over worse things > > (than those mentioned); otherwise (Thou mightst have declared them, > > for) Thou knowest with Thy knowledge (all my) shameful deeds; > > But, outside of my own exertion and action, beyond good and evil and > > religion and infidelity, > > And beyond my feeble supplication and the fancy and imagination of > > myself or a hundred like me, > > Beyond living righteously or behaving disobediently-I had a (great) > > hope in Thy pure lovingkindness. > > I had hope in the pure bounty (flowing) from Thy spontaneous > > lovingkindness, O Gracious Disinterested One. > > I turn my face back to that pure grace: I am not looking towards my > > own actions. > > 1842 I turn my face towards that hope, for Thou hast given me > > existence older than of old. > > 1843 Thou gavest (me) existence, free of cost, as a robe of honour: I > > have always relied upon that (generosity)." > > When he recounts his sins and trespasses, the Pure Bounty begins to > > show munificence, > > Saying, "O angels, bring him back to Us, for his inward eye has > > (ever) been (turned) towards hope. > > 1846 Like one who recks of naught, We will set him free and cancel all > > his trespasses. > > (To say) ` I reck not' is permitted to that One (alone) who loses > > nothing by perfidy and (gains nothing) by probity. > > We will kindle up a goodly fire of grace, in order that no sin and > > fault, great or small, may endure > > Such a fire that the least spark of the flame thereof is consuming > > (all) sin and necessity and free-will. > > 'We will set fire to the tenement of Man and make the thorns (in it) > > a spiritual garden of roses. > > 1851 We have sent from the Ninth Sphere (the highest Heaven) the > > elixer (namely), "He will rectify for you your actions." > > --Book V:1835-50, translated by Nicholson, 1934 > > > -------------------- > > FROM NICHOLSON'S COMMENTARY, 1937, 1940 > > 1818 The bare outline of the following passage is supplied by a > > Hadith-i qudsi (A.Q, No. 309; cf. ibid. No. 332): "When God has > > finished judging mankind on the Day of Resurrection, two men will > > remain, and the order will be given that both are for Hell. Then (on > > the way thither) one of them will turn his face (to God), and the > > Almighty will order to he brought hark and will ask him why he turned > > round, and he will answer: `I was hoping Thou wouldst let me enter > > Paradise.' And then God will order that lie be taken to Paradise." > > 1822 See the note on 11 2726. [= "I did an evil deed and am still > > repenting: I am waiting that my night may turn to day." i.e. "I am > > waiting for God's mercy to dispel the darkness with which His wrath > > has encompassed me." intizar-am = dar intizar-am. ] [Nicholson's > > Commentry: "The souls that have vision and real knowledge of God in > > this world are those of the elect which enjoyed that vision and were > > imbued with that knowledge in the state of pre-existence. Qur. vii > > 171. See note on I 1241. All human souls heard the Divine question "Am > > not I your Lord?" and answered "Yea"; but inasmuch as their essential > > natures were different, their confessions also differed in character > > and value. The elect (al-sabiqun), with hearts illumined by the light > > of Love, responded: "Yea, Thou art He whom we love and adore." The > > true believers (ashabu 'l-maymunah) replied with the tongue of faith: > > "Yea, Thou art the One Lord whom we worship." The hypocrites and > > infidels (ashabu 'l-mash'amah), whose hearts were veiled by Divine > > Majesty and Wrath, gave the response unwillingly like slaves under > > duress." > > 1842 See II 168, 1666-1668, and the notes ad loc. [=(None but) that > > person that has seen the King is gladdened by the sign; when one has > > not seen Him, there is no recognition.//The spirit of that one who at > > the time of Am not (your Lord)? saw his Lord and became beside himself > > and intoxicated.//He (that spirit) knows the scent of the wine because > > > hand (be acquired).//For, without pleasure, flesh and skin do not > > grow; and unless they grow, what shall the love of the Friend > > consume?// If, because of the requirement, acts of wrath come to pass, > > to the end that you may give up that stock-in-trade,// (Yet) again > > (afterwards) the Grace of God) will come in order to excuse it (the at > > of wrath), saying, "(Now) thou hast washed thyself (clean) and thou > > hast leaped forth from the river (of tribulation."] [Nicholson's > > Commentary: "4165 : i.e. the object of our earthly life is > > purification by Divine Love." "4166-4167: See the Hadiths cited in > > the note on I 672. God first showed mers) the Grace of God) will come in order to excuse it (the at > > of wrath), saying, "(Now) thou hast washed thyself (clean) and thou > > hast leaped forth from the river (of tribulation."] [Nicholson's > > Commentary: "4165 : i.e. the object of our earthly life is > > purification by Divine Love." "4166-4167: See the Hadiths cited in > > the note on I 672. God first showed mercy by bringing us into > > existence and manifesting His attributes in us (cf. SIM, 98 seq.). His > > wrath is mercy in disguise (1 243, note)." "4168: Bodily life and > > growth and sensual appetite are necessary for the full development of > > the powers of the soul. Hence the superiority of the Perfect Man to > > the angels, who have no "flesh" to be overcome and transmuted into > > spirit (cf. the note on I >
> ... > > read more »
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I agree with you that it isn't a topic worth discussing in itself. What is more relevant here is what Mawlana Rumi believed. And you had brought up the issue ("Regarding the ultimate salvation of every man, perhaps this idea can also be found in Mathnawi V, 1795-1855.... I'd welcome your thoughts and Ibrahim's and others' on this idea of the ultimate salvation of everyone, according to Rumi or the Traditions or Islam more generally. As far as I understand these verses just quoted from Mathnawi, the fire of Hell is ultimately a purifying fire and not a punitive fire. Doesn't this contradict Al Qur'an?"
That's why I quoted the Qur'an, ahadiith, and some theology. Mawlana followed the Maatoridi school of Hanafi theology, but I don't know what the teaching of this school was on this subject.
Nicholson said in his commentary: "All souls have been brought into existence by Divine Mercy and will ultimately be saved". However this may be the result of excessively using the theosophy of Ibnu 'l-`Arabi in interpreting Masnavi. Are Rumi's views about the fate of Pharaoh relevant here?
Ibrahim
-----------
On Dec 12, 5:57 am, "Iljas Baker" <iljasba...@gmail.com> wrote: > Dear Ibrahim, > > Salaam. Thank you. > > No Mawlana doesn't directly deny that Hell is eternal. I am not so sure that > this is actually the theme here. It is interesting that the "ne'er do well" > in this passage does seem to have a spark of *iman *and for that he appears > to be called back. So perhaps this is not so much a > philosophical/theological passage but a passage which reminds us not to pass > judgement even over those who appear to be the most blatant wrongdoers. The > All Merciful can see what cannot be seen by Man. > > I don't believe it is meaningful for us to have an opinion on whether Hell > is eternal or not but it is meaningful to know that we don't know. Don't you > agree that certain kinds of ignorance are a great field where love can grow? > > Iljas > > On 12/11/08, daralmasnavi....@gmail.com <daralmasnavi....@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Dear Iljas, > > Salaam, > > > You have raised an interesting issue, worth a new topic heading. > > Nicholsons' translation and commentary are posted below, per Mawlana's > > views on this subject in the Masnavi. He does not directly deny that > > Hell is eternal. However, a portion of Muslim scholars and sufis have. > > > "He will say: 'The Fire will be your dwelling-place: you will dwell > > therein for ever [khaalidiin], except as God willeth" (Qur'an 6:128, > > trans. by Yusuf Ali) "...save him whom Allah willeth (to > > deliver)." (trans. by Pickthall) "...unless God wills it > > otherwise." (trans. by Muhammad Asad) Footnote by M. Asad: "I.e., > > unless He graces them with His mercy.... Some of the great Muslim > > theologians conclude from the above and from the similar phrase > > occurring in 11:107 (as well as from several well-authenticated > > sayings of the Prophet) that--contrary to the bliss of paradise, which > > will be of unlimited duration--the suffering of the sinners in he life > > to come will be limited by God's mercy." (p. 193) From Glasse, "The > > Concise Encyclopedia of Islam": "Theologians make the distinction that > > both hell and paradise last for perpetuity (khuld) and not for > > eternity (abad), that is, that they have no limit or end, in the sense > > that they are indefinite temporarily. this distinction is necessary, > > for eternity is a quality that belongs to God alone.... However, most > > other theologians, particularly the school of al-Ash'ari, believe that > > if the person who entered hell was not an idolater, a mushrik, one who > > associated another reality with God, but a believer, then God could > > forgive his sins or non-conformities. This could take place > > immediately, aided perhaps by the intercession of the Divine > > Messengers whom whom the believer followed, despite his sins. Or the > > forgiveness could take place after a sojourn in hell in which the non- > > conformities had been 'burned away'. There is a Hadith which refers to > > this; 'He shall make men come out of hell after they have been burned > > and reduced to cinders'." (p. 152-3) > > > Ibrahim > > --------------------- > > > He drags his feet (lingers) on every road, that perchance he may > > escape from the pit (of Hell). > > 1818 He stands expectantly, keeping silence and turning his face > > backward in a (fervent) hope, > > Pouring tears like autumn rain. A mere hope--what has he > > except that? > > (So) at every moment he is looking back and turning his face to the > > Holy Court (on high). > > Then from God in the realm of light comes the command "Say ye to > > him, > > 'O ne'er-do-well destitute (of merit), > > 1822 What art thou expecting, O mine of mischief? Why art thou looking > > back, O giddy-headed man? Thy scroll (record) is that which came into > > thy hand, O offender against God and worshipper of the Devil. > > Since thou hast seen the scroll of thy deeds, why dost thou look > > back? Behold the reward of thy works! > > Why art thou tarrying in vain? Where is hope of light in such a > > (deep) pit as this? > > Neither outwardly hast thou any act of piety (to thy credit), nor > > inwardly and in thy heart an intention (to perform one); > > No nightly orisons and vigils, no abstinence and fasting in the > > daytime; > > No holding thy tongue to avoid hurting any one, no looking > > earnestly' > > forward and backward. > > --Book V:1817-28, translated by Nicholson, 1934 > > > The servant (of God) answers: "I am a hundred, hundred, hundred > > times > > as much as that which Thou hast declared. > > Verily, in Thy forbearance Thou hast thrown a veil over worse things > > (than those mentioned); otherwise (Thou mightst have declared them, > > for) Thou knowest with Thy knowledge (all my) shameful deeds; > > But, outside of my own exertion and action, beyond good and evil and > > religion and infidelity, > > And beyond my feeble supplication and the fancy and imagination of > > myself or a hundred like me, > > Beyond living righteously or behaving disobediently-I had a (great) > > hope in Thy pure lovingkindness. > > I had hope in the pure bounty (flowing) from Thy spontaneous > > lovingkindness, O Gracious Disinterested One. > > I turn my face back to that pure grace: I am not looking towards my > > own actions. > > 1842 I turn my face towards that hope, for Thou hast given me > > existence older than of old. > > 1843 Thou gavest (me) existence, free of cost, as a robe of honour: I > > have always relied upon that (generosity)." > > When he recounts his sins and trespasses, the Pure Bounty begins to > > show munificence, > > Saying, "O angels, bring him back to Us, for his inward eye has > > (ever) been (turned) towards hope. > > 1846 Like one who recks of naught, We will set him free and cancel all > > his trespasses. > > (To say) ` I reck not' is permitted to that One (alone) who loses > > nothing by perfidy and (gains nothing) by probity. > > We will kindle up a goodly fire of grace, in order that no sin and > > fault, great or small, may endure > > Such a fire that the least spark of the flame thereof is consuming > > (all) sin and necessity and free-will. > > 'We will set fire to the tenement of Man and make the thorns (in it) > > a spiritual garden of roses. > > 1851 We have sent from the Ninth Sphere (the highest Heaven) the > > elixer (namely), "He will rectify for you your actions." > > --Book V:1835-50, translated by Nicholson, 1934 > > > -------------------- > > FROM NICHOLSON'S COMMENTARY, 1937, 1940 > > 1818 The bare outline of the following passage is supplied by a > > Hadith-i qudsi (A.Q, No. 309; cf. ibid. No. 332): "When God has > > finished judging mankind on the Day of Resurrection, two men will > > remain, and the order will be given that both are for Hell. Then (on > > the way thither) one of them will turn his face (to God), and the > > Almighty will order to he brought hark and will ask him why he turned > > round, and he will answer: `I was hoping Thou wouldst let me enter > > Paradise.' And then God will order that lie be taken to Paradise." > > 1822 See the note on 11 2726. [= "I did an evil deed and am still > > repenting: I am waiting that my night may turn to day." i.e. "I am > > waiting for God's mercy to dispel the darkness with which His wrath > > has encompassed me." intizar-am = dar intizar-am. ] [Nicholson's > > Commentry: "The souls that have vision and real knowledge of God in > > this world are those of the elect which enjoyed that vision and were > > imbued with that knowledge in the state of pre-existence. Qur. vii > > 171. See note on I 1241. All human souls heard the Divine question "Am > > not I your Lord?" and answered "Yea"; but inasmuch as their essential > > natures were different, their confessions also differed in character > > and value. The elect (al-sabiqun), with hearts illumined by the light > > of Love, responded: "Yea, Thou art He whom we love and adore." The > > true believers (ashabu 'l-maymunah) replied with the tongue of faith: > > "Yea, Thou art the One Lord whom we worship." The hypocrites and > > infidels (ashabu 'l-mash'amah), whose hearts were veiled by Divine > > Majesty and Wrath, gave the response unwillingly like slaves under > > duress." > > 1842 See II 168, 1666-1668, and the notes ad loc. [=(None but) that > > person that has seen the King is gladdened by the sign; when one has > > not seen Him, there is no recognition.//The spirit of that one who at > > the time of Am not (your Lord)? saw his Lord and became beside himself > > and intoxicated.//He (that spirit) knows the scent of the wine because > > he drank it (before); when he has not drunk it, he cannot scent it. > > > 1843 All souls have been brought into existence by Divine Mercy and > > will ultimately be saved (SIM, 159 seq.). Cf. III 4165-4I70 and the > > notes ad loci [="His (God's mercy (eternally preceded His wrath in > > order that the stock-in-trade, (which is) existence, should come to > > hand (be acquired).//For, without pleasure, flesh and skin do not > > grow; and unless they grow, what shall the love of the Friend > > consume?// If, because of the requirement, acts of wrath come to pass, > > to the end that you may give up that stock-in-trade,// (Yet) again > > (afterwards) the Grace of God) will come in order to excuse it (the at > > of wrath), saying, "(Now) thou hast washed thyself (clean) and thou > > hast leaped forth from the river (of tribulation."] [Nicholson's > > Commentary: "4165 : i.e. the object of our earthly life is > > purification by Divine Love." "4166-4167: See the Hadiths cited in > > the note on I 672. God first showed mercy by bringing us into > > existence and manifesting His attributes in us (cf. SIM, 98 seq.). His > > wrath is mercy in disguise (1 243, note)." "4168: Bodily life and > > growth and sensual appetite are necessary for the full development of > > the powers of the soul. Hence the superiority of the Perfect Man to > > the angels, who have no "flesh" to be overcome and transmuted into > > spirit (cf. the note on I > > ... > > read more »
I've met Alan Williams last year in Konya and I am using his transation of Masnawi book 1 as reference. In general, his sentences are much shorter (than Nicholson) and have been very helpful as a second or third reference.
My name is Tariq, I am based in UK and I am currently reading 'Spiritual verses' by Alan Williams. I am also going to meet the author this Sunday! very exciting.
Has anyone else read this translation? I guess I am trying to compare this translation with the others. I cannot understand much Persian but can read and write Urdu.
> Dear Brother Iljas ,The last selection is the 3rd line of ghazal No. 765 in > Foruzanfar's edition. I first saw this poem in Arberry's "The Mystical Poems > of Rumi," but at present I don't have the book at my disposal to give you > the ghazal number in his selection. This is a very inspiring poem which has > kindled a sense of great hope and longing in the soul of the seekers. The > peak of the poem is the last verse where Rumi assures the reader that > "without a doubt *everybody* will taste the Divine wine (or rather He will > make them taste the wine)." Here, the word *taste* is repeated four times, > thus revealing another great secret: that all humans will ultimately > experience the union with God. As far as my limited knowledge allows, Ibn > 'Arabi has expressed the same truth in a different way; that of the ultimate > salvation for all humanity. Below you can see the transliteration of the > first and the last verses of this ghazal. For the translation of the verses > you can refer to Arberry's "The Mystical Poems of Rumi."Regards > Behnaz > > 7999: hale nomiid nabaashii ke to raa Yaar beraanad garat emrooz beraanad, > na ke fardaat bekhvaanad 8007: hale khaamoosh kaz iin may hamegaan > raa becheshaanad, > becheshaanad, becheshaanad, becheshsanad > > > On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 2:44 AM, <daralmasnavi.org@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Dear Iljas, > > Salaam, > > > > Thanks for giving me the opportunity to do my first searches on the CD- > > ROM I received recently from sister Behnaz in Tehran: "Emissaary of > > the Sun" [Rasuul-e aaftaab], made by Dr. Abdol Karim Soroosh, which > > has the entire Persian text of Foruuzaanfar's edition of Divan-i > > Kabir, with excellent search capacity. > > > > Before this I could do English and Persian word searches of Masnavi > > and Rubaa`iyaat (Quatrains), but not for Ghazals or Tarji`aat/Tarji`- > > band poems from the Divan. Now I can do occasional searches (I've been > > getting requests about ghazals for years). It's easier to do from an > > accurate English translation, and much depends on making good guesses > > on what the original Perso-Arabic word may be. Somewhat uncommon or > > rare words are the best choices for searches. > > > > Per Annemarie Schimmel's book ("Look, This is Love: Poems of Rumi"), > > I've also been frustrated that no sources are listed (done > > meticulously in her other books). The first selection you asked about > > ("Learn from God's Messenger this alchemy..." is from Rumi's Ghazal > > No. 2675, first and third verses (found via a search for "alchemy"-- > > kiimiyaa). > > > > The second selection ("Weave not, like spiders...") is from Ghazal No. > > 922, ninth to eleventh verses (found via a search for "woof"--pood). > > > > The third selection is too difficult to search for (too many common > > words). > > > > Ibrahim > > > > > > > > Dear Ibrahim, > > On a similar topic as Unseen Rain. The following are translations by > > Annemarie Schimmel published in "Look! This is Love: Poems of Rumi" > > published by Shambhala in1991. I think they read very well as one poem > > but > > she has them on three separate pages. I've never been able to track > > them > > down or to find alternative translations. The book contains some notes > > but > > absolutely no information on the originals. > > Iljas > > Learn from God's Messenger this alchemy: > > Be satisfied with what He gives to you. > > And when the envoy "Grief" comes to your > > house, > > Then take him to your breast like an old > > friend! > > Weave not, like spiders, nets from grief's > > saliva > > In which the woof and warp are both > > decaying. > > But give the grief to Him, Who granted it, > > And do not talk about it anymore. > > When you are silent, His speech is your > > speech, > > When you don't weave, the weaver will be > > He. > > And if he closes before you > > the ways and passes all-- > > He'll show you a hidden pathway > > which nobody has known! > > > > > > > > > > >
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Please forgive my delayed reply to your email. My computer was unavailable to me for a few days.
Many thanks for your guidance! I have a friend who owns a Persian bookstore who should be able to locate either of the alternatives you have presented to me.
As an aside: my original desire to own the Persian edition of Nicholson's Masnavi was manifold - both as a study reference for Masnavi studies explicitly, and as a cross-reference between the Persian and English Editions in order to aid in my learning Farsi (with the help of friends fluent in Farsi).
You don't really need Nicholson's Persian edition, unless you need it to use the Masnavi concordance "Az daryaa ba-daryaa" (for which it Is essential to find the corresponding verses in Nicholson's edition). And you don't need those four huge volumes if you have the CD "Mathnavi in the 2nd mirror" done by Dr. Abdol Karim Soroosh (that was recently sent to me from Iran), which contains al 6 books of Masnavi (with audio tracks for Book 2, and excellent search capacity). And Dr. Soroosh's numbering is close to that in Nicholson's Persian volumes (in the last part of Book 1 there is a difference of 7 verses; in the last part of Book 6, there is a difference of 1 verse).
Or, alternatively, you can get (also from Iran) the Persian edition I use, edited by Dr. Towfiiq SobHaanii, which has Nicholson's numbering next to Sobhani's numbering. As you probably know, the first 2 1/3 Books of Nicholson's edition are defective in that they are based on very early manuscripts, but not the oldest one (the "Konya MS"). Nicholson got a copy of that and based the rest of his Persian text and translation on that, and he included indexes that show the corrections (one in Persian, that is more detailed than you probably need; one in English, at the end of Nicholson's translation of Book 4, which is very useful). The Sobhani and Soroosh editions are, of course, entirely based on the "Konya MS."
Another alternative is a CD-ROM that a friend of mine is working on (to be available in about 2 years, inshaa 'llaah), with the permission of Nicholson's publisher: it will have both the full English and Persian texts, as well as links to Nicholson's corrections matching his translation with how it should be according to the Konya MS, plus an English translation of all the obscene words and verses that Nicholson translated from Persian to Latin.
Ibrahim
---------------------
On Nov 29, 9:41 pm, Casey <mcg...@cox.net> wrote: > Salaam bar shoma! > > I'm wanting to relay a bit of information I received from the David > Brown Book Company, the North American distributors of Nicholson's > translations of the Masnavi. They recently informed me, upon my > having placed an order for the entire set of Nicholson's persian > edition of the Masnavi, that the persian edition was no longer > available, though there is intended to be a limited reprinting of the > persian edition in mid-2009. > > This being said, and considering my desire to purchase Nicholson's > persian edition, I must ask, does anyone know of any other source > (either commercial or an individual) who has and is willing to sell > the entire set of Nicholson's persian edition of the Masnavi? > > My best regards to you all, and, in particular, Sheikh Gamard. > > Khoda Negahdar, > Casey
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--- On Fri, 12/12/08, daralmasnavi.org@gmail.com <daralmasnavi.org@gmail.com> wrote:
From: daralmasnavi.org@gmail.com <daralmasnavi.org@gmail.com> Subject: [Dar-al-Masnavi] Re: Nicholson's translation of Mathnawi To: "Dar-al-Masnavi" <dar-al-masnavi@googlegroups.com> Date: Friday, December 12, 2008, 6:31 AM
Dear Panevis,
Yes, al-hamdu li-llaah, this is a reformatted version of Nicholson's complete translation of Mathnawi (1926-1934), minus his footnotes, his tables of content, and without transliterated Arabo-Persian letters with dots underneath them (such as h, s, t, z) that are not amenable to a website without using PDF. http://www.semazen.net/eng/show_text_main.php?id=12&menuId=65
There are small differences: for example, the dash after "Complaining of separations--" in 1:1 is missing; 1:35 ("O my friends, hearken to this tale...") has been moved from before the Heading to just after it, in accord with the earliest manuscript of Mathnawi (the Konya MS). This was the only major change noticed by me, per Nicholson's index of corrections to bring his translation in line with the earliest manuscript,
Had heard, some months ago, that Nicholson's complete translation was going to appear on the English side of semzen.net, but hadn't really believed it, per the copyright issues with Nicholson's publisher. However, semazen.net (an excellent website full of Mevlevi material) is connected to the Turkish government Ministry of Culture. Maaybe the Ministry of Culture made an arrangement with Nicholson's publisher. Will try to find out more information (per my contacts with semazen.net) about this very significant development--and a fabulous opportunity for Masnavi studies!
"Stories from the Masnavi" is Whinfield's abridged one-volume translation of Masnavi done in 1898, available elsewhere on the Internet.
Ibrahim
--------------------------------- On Dec 11, 4:33 am, Panevis <pane...@gmail.com> wrote: > Hello Dr Gamard, > > Will you have a look at this page: > > http://www.semazen. net/eng/show_ text_main. php?id=251& menuId=65 > > Is it the entire Nicholson's Mathnawi? > > Regards, > > Panevis.
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No Mawlana doesn't directly deny that Hell is eternal. I am not so sure that this is actually the theme here. It is interesting that the "ne'er do well" in this passage does seem to have a spark of iman and for that he appears to be called back. So perhaps this is not so much a philosophical/theological passage but a passage which reminds us not to pass judgement even over those who appear to be the most blatant wrongdoers. The All Merciful can see what cannot be seen by Man.
I don't believe it is meaningful for us to have an opinion on whether Hell is eternal or not but it is meaningful to know that we don't know. Don't you agree that certain kinds of ignorance are a great field where love can grow?
You have raised an interesting issue, worth a new topic heading. Nicholsons' translation and commentary are posted below, per Mawlana's views on this subject in the Masnavi. He does not directly deny that Hell is eternal. However, a portion of Muslim scholars and sufis have.
"He will say: 'The Fire will be your dwelling-place: you will dwell therein for ever [khaalidiin], except as God willeth" (Qur'an 6:128, trans. by Yusuf Ali) "...save him whom Allah willeth (to deliver)." (trans. by Pickthall) "...unless God wills it otherwise." (trans. by Muhammad Asad) Footnote by M. Asad: "I.e., unless He graces them with His mercy.... Some of the great Muslim theologians conclude from the above and from the similar phrase occurring in 11:107 (as well as from several well-authenticated sayings of the Prophet) that--contrary to the bliss of paradise, which will be of unlimited duration--the suffering of the sinners in he life to come will be limited by God's mercy." (p. 193) From Glasse, "The Concise Encyclopedia of Islam": "Theologians make the distinction that both hell and paradise last for perpetuity (khuld) and not for eternity (abad), that is, that they have no limit or end, in the sense that they are indefinite temporarily. this distinction is necessary, for eternity is a quality that belongs to God alone.... However, most other theologians, particularly the school of al-Ash'ari, believe that if the person who entered hell was not an idolater, a mushrik, one who associated another reality with God, but a believer, then God could forgive his sins or non-conformities. This could take place immediately, aided perhaps by the intercession of the Divine Messengers whom whom the believer followed, despite his sins. Or the forgiveness could take place after a sojourn in hell in which the non- conformities had been 'burned away'. There is a Hadith which refers to this; 'He shall make men come out of hell after they have been burned and reduced to cinders'." (p. 152-3)
Ibrahim ---------------------
He drags his feet (lingers) on every road, that perchance he may escape from the pit (of Hell). 1818 He stands expectantly, keeping silence and turning his face backward in a (fervent) hope, Pouring tears like autumn rain. A mere hope--what has he except that? (So) at every moment he is looking back and turning his face to the Holy Court (on high). Then from God in the realm of light comes the command "Say ye to him, 'O ne'er-do-well destitute (of merit), 1822 What art thou expecting, O mine of mischief? Why art thou looking back, O giddy-headed man? Thy scroll (record) is that which came into thy hand, O offender against God and worshipper of the Devil. Since thou hast seen the scroll of thy deeds, why dost thou look back? Behold the reward of thy works! Why art thou tarrying in vain? Where is hope of light in such a (deep) pit as this? Neither outwardly hast thou any act of piety (to thy credit), nor inwardly and in thy heart an intention (to perform one); No nightly orisons and vigils, no abstinence and fasting in the daytime; No holding thy tongue to avoid hurting any one, no looking earnestly' forward and backward. --Book V:1817-28, translated by Nicholson, 1934
The servant (of God) answers: "I am a hundred, hundred, hundred times as much as that which Thou hast declared. Verily, in Thy forbearance Thou hast thrown a veil over worse things (than those mentioned); otherwise (Thou mightst have declared them, for) Thou knowest with Thy knowledge (all my) shameful deeds; But, outside of my own exertion and action, beyond good and evil and religion and infidelity, And beyond my feeble supplication and the fancy and imagination of myself or a hundred like me, Beyond living righteously or behaving disobediently-I had a (great) hope in Thy pure lovingkindness. I had hope in the pure bounty (flowing) from Thy spontaneous lovingkindness, O Gracious Disinterested One. I turn my face back to that pure grace: I am not looking towards my own actions. 1842 I turn my face towards that hope, for Thou hast given me existence older than of old. 1843 Thou gavest (me) existence, free of cost, as a robe of honour: I have always relied upon that (generosity)." When he recounts his sins and trespasses, the Pure Bounty begins to show munificence, Saying, "O angels, bring him back to Us, for his inward eye has (ever) been (turned) towards hope. 1846 Like one who recks of naught, We will set him free and cancel all his trespasses. (To say) ` I reck not' is permitted to that One (alone) who loses nothing by perfidy and (gains nothing) by probity. We will kindle up a goodly fire of grace, in order that no sin and fault, great or small, may endure Such a fire that the least spark of the flame thereof is consuming (all) sin and necessity and free-will. 'We will set fire to the tenement of Man and make the thorns (in it) a spiritual garden of roses. 1851 We have sent from the Ninth Sphere (the highest Heaven) the elixer (namely), "He will rectify for you your actions." --Book V:1835-50, translated by Nicholson, 1934
-------------------- FROM NICHOLSON'S COMMENTARY, 1937, 1940 1818 The bare outline of the following passage is supplied by a Hadith-i qudsi (A.Q, No. 309; cf. ibid. No. 332): "When God has finished judging mankind on the Day of Resurrection, two men will remain, and the order will be given that both are for Hell. Then (on the way thither) one of them will turn his face (to God), and the Almighty will order to he brought hark and will ask him why he turned round, and he will answer: `I was hoping Thou wouldst let me enter Paradise.' And then God will order that lie be taken to Paradise." 1822 See the note on 11 2726. [= "I did an evil deed and am still repenting: I am waiting that my night may turn to day." i.e. "I am waiting for God's mercy to dispel the darkness with which His wrath has encompassed me." intizar-am = dar intizar-am. ] [Nicholson's Commentry: "The souls that have vision and real knowledge of God in this world are those of the elect which enjoyed that vision and were imbued with that knowledge in the state of pre-existence. Qur. vii 171. See note on I 1241. All human souls heard the Divine question "Am not I your Lord?" and answered "Yea"; but inasmuch as their essential natures were different, their confessions also differed in character and value. The elect (al-sabiqun), with hearts illumined by the light of Love, responded: "Yea, Thou art He whom we love and adore." The true believers (ashabu 'l-maymunah) replied with the tongue of faith: "Yea, Thou art the One Lord whom we worship." The hypocrites and infidels (ashabu 'l-mash'amah), whose hearts were veiled by Divine Majesty and Wrath, gave the response unwillingly like slaves under duress." 1842 See II 168, 1666-1668, and the notes ad loc. [=(None but) that person that has seen the King is gladdened by the sign; when one has not seen Him, there is no recognition.//The spirit of that one who at the time of Am not (your Lord)? saw his Lord and became beside himself and intoxicated.//He (that spirit) knows the scent of the wine because he drank it (before); when he has not drunk it, he cannot scent it.
1843 All souls have been brought into existence by Divine Mercy and will ultimately be saved (SIM, 159 seq.). Cf. III 4165-4I70 and the notes ad loci [="His (God's mercy (eternally preceded His wrath in order that the stock-in-trade, (which is) existence, should come to hand (be acquired).//For, without pleasure, flesh and skin do not grow; and unless they grow, what shall the love of the Friend consume?// If, because of the requirement, acts of wrath come to pass, to the end that you may give up that stock-in-trade,// (Yet) again (afterwards) the Grace of God) will come in order to excuse it (the at of wrath), saying, "(Now) thou hast washed thyself (clean) and thou hast leaped forth from the river (of tribulation."] [Nicholson's Commentary: "4165 : i.e. the object of our earthly life is purification by Divine Love." "4166-4167: See the Hadiths cited in the note on I 672. God first showed mercy by bringing us into existence and manifesting His attributes in us (cf. SIM, 98 seq.). His wrath is mercy in disguise (1 243, note)." "4168: Bodily life and growth and sensual appetite are necessary for the full development of the powers of the soul. Hence the superiority of the Perfect Man to the angels, who have no "flesh" to be overcome and transmuted into spirit (cf. the note on I 2650-2651 and the additional notes on I 1515-15 z 1)." 1846 without regard to merit or demerit: From the mystical point of view, this doctrine is not inconsistent with the well-known Hadith-i qudsi concerning God's indifference to the fate of His creatures (III 3630-3634; note); for in the end His universal Mercy will remove the veil of ignorance and unbelief which constitutes the torment of Hell and which alone prevents the damned from attaining to blessedness. 1851 Qur. XXXIII 71
----------------------
Dear Behnaz, Salaam and thanks for your response, it was good to hear from you. I checked out the Arberry translations as I have the 2 volumes at home. I didn't realize that A. Schimmel had only translated a small part of the ghazal. Regarding the ultimate salvation of every man, perhaps this idea can also be found in Mathnawi V, 1795-1855 where the All Merciful addresses one party in the story as: "O offender against God and worshipper of the Devil" Later when on his way to Hell he looks back to the All Merciful, the All Merciful says: "O angels, bring him back to Us, for his inward eye has (ever) been (turned) towards hope... We will kindle up a goodly fire of grace, in order that no sin and fault, great or small may endure-- Such a fire that the least spark of the flame thereof is consuming (all) sin and necessity and free will. We will set a fire to the tenement of Man and make the thorns in it a spiritual garden of roses. We have sent from the Ninth Sphere (the highest Heaven) the elixir (namely), *He will rectify for you your actions*." What in sooth is Adam's (Man's) sovereignty and power of choice beside the Light of the Everlasting Abode? According to Khosla (THE SUFISM OF RUMI) this is based on a Tradition of our Prophet. This he says is mentioned in Nicholson's Commentary but I no longer have that with me so cannot check. I'd welcome your thoughts and Ibrahim's and others' on this idea of the ultimate salvation of everyone, according to Rumi or the Traditions or Islam more enerally. As far as I understand these verses just quoted from Mathnawi, the fire of Hell is ultimately a purifying fire and not a punitive fire.Doesn't this contradict Al Qur'an? Iljas
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Yes, al-hamdu li-llaah, this is a reformatted version of Nicholson's complete translation of Mathnawi (1926-1934), minus his footnotes, his tables of content, and without transliterated Arabo-Persian letters with dots underneath them (such as h, s, t, z) that are not amenable to a website without using PDF. http://www.semazen.net/eng/show_text_main.php?id=12&menuId=65
There are small differences: for example, the dash after "Complaining of separations--" in 1:1 is missing; 1:35 ("O my friends, hearken to this tale...") has been moved from before the Heading to just after it, in accord with the earliest manuscript of Mathnawi (the Konya MS). This was the only major change noticed by me, per Nicholson's index of corrections to bring his translation in line with the earliest manuscript,
Had heard, some months ago, that Nicholson's complete translation was going to appear on the English side of semzen.net, but hadn't really believed it, per the copyright issues with Nicholson's publisher. However, semazen.net (an excellent website full of Mevlevi material) is connected to the Turkish government Ministry of Culture. Maaybe the Ministry of Culture made an arrangement with Nicholson's publisher. Will try to find out more information (per my contacts with semazen.net) about this very significant development--and a fabulous opportunity for Masnavi studies!
"Stories from the Masnavi" is Whinfield's abridged one-volume translation of Masnavi done in 1898, available elsewhere on the Internet.
Ibrahim
--------------------------------- On Dec 11, 4:33 am, Panevis <pane...@gmail.com> wrote: > Hello Dr Gamard, > > Will you have a look at this page: > > http://www.semazen. net/eng/show_ text_main. php?id=251& menuId=65 > > Is it the entire Nicholson's Mathnawi? > > Regards, > > Panevis.
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You have raised an interesting issue, worth a new topic heading. Nicholsons' translation and commentary are posted below, per Mawlana's views on this subject in the Masnavi. He does not directly deny that Hell is eternal. However, a portion of Muslim scholars and sufis have.
"He will say: 'The Fire will be your dwelling-place: you will dwell therein for ever [khaalidiin], except as God willeth" (Qur'an 6:128, trans. by Yusuf Ali) "...save him whom Allah willeth (to deliver)." (trans. by Pickthall) "...unless God wills it otherwise." (trans. by Muhammad Asad) Footnote by M. Asad: "I.e., unless He graces them with His mercy.... Some of the great Muslim theologians conclude from the above and from the similar phrase occurring in 11:107 (as well as from several well-authenticated sayings of the Prophet) that--contrary to the bliss of paradise, which will be of unlimited duration--the suffering of the sinners in he life to come will be limited by God's mercy." (p. 193) From Glasse, "The Concise Encyclopedia of Islam": "Theologians make the distinction that both hell and paradise last for perpetuity (khuld) and not for eternity (abad), that is, that they have no limit or end, in the sense that they are indefinite temporarily. this distinction is necessary, for eternity is a quality that belongs to God alone.... However, most other theologians, particularly the school of al-Ash'ari, believe that if the person who entered hell was not an idolater, a mushrik, one who associated another reality with God, but a believer, then God could forgive his sins or non-conformities. This could take place immediately, aided perhaps by the intercession of the Divine Messengers whom whom the believer followed, despite his sins. Or the forgiveness could take place after a sojourn in hell in which the non- conformities had been 'burned away'. There is a Hadith which refers to this; 'He shall make men come out of hell after they have been burned and reduced to cinders'." (p. 152-3)
Ibrahim ---------------------
He drags his feet (lingers) on every road, that perchance he may escape from the pit (of Hell). 1818 He stands expectantly, keeping silence and turning his face backward in a (fervent) hope, Pouring tears like autumn rain. A mere hope--what has he except that? (So) at every moment he is looking back and turning his face to the Holy Court (on high). Then from God in the realm of light comes the command "Say ye to him, 'O ne'er-do-well destitute (of merit), 1822 What art thou expecting, O mine of mischief? Why art thou looking back, O giddy-headed man? Thy scroll (record) is that which came into thy hand, O offender against God and worshipper of the Devil. Since thou hast seen the scroll of thy deeds, why dost thou look back? Behold the reward of thy works! Why art thou tarrying in vain? Where is hope of light in such a (deep) pit as this? Neither outwardly hast thou any act of piety (to thy credit), nor inwardly and in thy heart an intention (to perform one); No nightly orisons and vigils, no abstinence and fasting in the daytime; No holding thy tongue to avoid hurting any one, no looking earnestly' forward and backward. --Book V:1817-28, translated by Nicholson, 1934
The servant (of God) answers: "I am a hundred, hundred, hundred times as much as that which Thou hast declared. Verily, in Thy forbearance Thou hast thrown a veil over worse things (than those mentioned); otherwise (Thou mightst have declared them, for) Thou knowest with Thy knowledge (all my) shameful deeds; But, outside of my own exertion and action, beyond good and evil and religion and infidelity, And beyond my feeble supplication and the fancy and imagination of myself or a hundred like me, Beyond living righteously or behaving disobediently-I had a (great) hope in Thy pure lovingkindness. I had hope in the pure bounty (flowing) from Thy spontaneous lovingkindness, O Gracious Disinterested One. I turn my face back to that pure grace: I am not looking towards my own actions. 1842 I turn my face towards that hope, for Thou hast given me existence older than of old. 1843 Thou gavest (me) existence, free of cost, as a robe of honour: I have always relied upon that (generosity)." When he recounts his sins and trespasses, the Pure Bounty begins to show munificence, Saying, "O angels, bring him back to Us, for his inward eye has (ever) been (turned) towards hope. 1846 Like one who recks of naught, We will set him free and cancel all his trespasses. (To say) ` I reck not' is permitted to that One (alone) who loses nothing by perfidy and (gains nothing) by probity. We will kindle up a goodly fire of grace, in order that no sin and fault, great or small, may endure Such a fire that the least spark of the flame thereof is consuming (all) sin and necessity and free-will. 'We will set fire to the tenement of Man and make the thorns (in it) a spiritual garden of roses. 1851 We have sent from the Ninth Sphere (the highest Heaven) the elixer (namely), "He will rectify for you your actions." --Book V:1835-50, translated by Nicholson, 1934
-------------------- FROM NICHOLSON'S COMMENTARY, 1937, 1940 1818 The bare outline of the following passage is supplied by a Hadith-i qudsi (A.Q, No. 309; cf. ibid. No. 332): "When God has finished judging mankind on the Day of Resurrection, two men will remain, and the order will be given that both are for Hell. Then (on the way thither) one of them will turn his face (to God), and the Almighty will order to he brought hark and will ask him why he turned round, and he will answer: `I was hoping Thou wouldst let me enter Paradise.' And then God will order that lie be taken to Paradise." 1822 See the note on 11 2726. [= "I did an evil deed and am still repenting: I am waiting that my night may turn to day." i.e. "I am waiting for God's mercy to dispel the darkness with which His wrath has encompassed me." intizar-am = dar intizar-am. ] [Nicholson's Commentry: "The souls that have vision and real knowledge of God in this world are those of the elect which enjoyed that vision and were imbued with that knowledge in the state of pre-existence. Qur. vii 171. See note on I 1241. All human souls heard the Divine question "Am not I your Lord?" and answered "Yea"; but inasmuch as their essential natures were different, their confessions also differed in character and value. The elect (al-sabiqun), with hearts illumined by the light of Love, responded: "Yea, Thou art He whom we love and adore." The true believers (ashabu 'l-maymunah) replied with the tongue of faith: "Yea, Thou art the One Lord whom we worship." The hypocrites and infidels (ashabu 'l-mash'amah), whose hearts were veiled by Divine Majesty and Wrath, gave the response unwillingly like slaves under duress." 1842 See II 168, 1666-1668, and the notes ad loc. [=(None but) that person that has seen the King is gladdened by the sign; when one has not seen Him, there is no recognition.//The spirit of that one who at the time of Am not (your Lord)? saw his Lord and became beside himself and intoxicated.//He (that spirit) knows the scent of the wine because he drank it (before); when he has not drunk it, he cannot scent it.
1843 All souls have been brought into existence by Divine Mercy and will ultimately be saved (SIM, 159 seq.). Cf. III 4165-4I70 and the notes ad loci [="His (God's mercy (eternally preceded His wrath in order that the stock-in-trade, (which is) existence, should come to hand (be acquired).//For, without pleasure, flesh and skin do not grow; and unless they grow, what shall the love of the Friend consume?// If, because of the requirement, acts of wrath come to pass, to the end that you may give up that stock-in-trade,// (Yet) again (afterwards) the Grace of God) will come in order to excuse it (the at of wrath), saying, "(Now) thou hast washed thyself (clean) and thou hast leaped forth from the river (of tribulation."] [Nicholson's Commentary: "4165 : i.e. the object of our earthly life is purification by Divine Love." "4166-4167: See the Hadiths cited in the note on I 672. God first showed mercy by bringing us into existence and manifesting His attributes in us (cf. SIM, 98 seq.). His wrath is mercy in disguise (1 243, note)." "4168: Bodily life and growth and sensual appetite are necessary for the full development of the powers of the soul. Hence the superiority of the Perfect Man to the angels, who have no "flesh" to be overcome and transmuted into spirit (cf. the note on I 2650-2651 and the additional notes on I 1515-15 z 1)." 1846 without regard to merit or demerit: From the mystical point of view, this doctrine is not inconsistent with the well-known Hadith-i qudsi concerning God's indifference to the fate of His creatures (III 3630-3634; note); for in the end His universal Mercy will remove the veil of ignorance and unbelief which constitutes the torment of Hell and which alone prevents the damned from attaining to blessedness. 1851 Qur. XXXIII 71
----------------------
Dear Behnaz, Salaam and thanks for your response, it was good to hear from you. I checked out the Arberry translations as I have the 2 volumes at home. I didn't realize that A. Schimmel had only translated a small part of the ghazal. Regarding the ultimate salvation of every man, perhaps this idea can also be found in Mathnawi V, 1795-1855 where the All Merciful addresses one party in the story as: "O offender against God and worshipper of the Devil" Later when on his way to Hell he looks back to the All Merciful, the All Merciful says: "O angels, bring him back to Us, for his inward eye has (ever) been (turned) towards hope... We will kindle up a goodly fire of grace, in order that no sin and fault, great or small may endure-- Such a fire that the least spark of the flame thereof is consuming (all) sin and necessity and free will. We will set a fire to the tenement of Man and make the thorns in it a spiritual garden of roses. We have sent from the Ninth Sphere (the highest Heaven) the elixir (namely), *He will rectify for you your actions*." What in sooth is Adam's (Man's) sovereignty and power of choice beside the Light of the Everlasting Abode? According to Khosla (THE SUFISM OF RUMI) this is based on a Tradition of our Prophet. This he says is mentioned in Nicholson's Commentary but I no longer have that with me so cannot check. I'd welcome your thoughts and Ibrahim's and others' on this idea of the ultimate salvation of everyone, according to Rumi or the Traditions or Islam more enerally. As far as I understand these verses just quoted from Mathnawi, the fire of Hell is ultimately a purifying fire and not a punitive fire.Doesn't this contradict Al Qur'an? Iljas
Hello Tariq and salaam. I have read some of the translation. It reads well but I cannot say anything about its accuracy. Seems to literal traknslations, academic. There's a talk (both audio and text) by Alan Williams on the Beshara web site which is interesting (the talk that is) and has some relatively large sections from some of his translations plus Persian transliterations taken from his book Spiritual Verses. He is a scholar of Persian and Iranian Studies at Manchester University and in his talk manages to convey his enthusiasm for Rumi's poetry.
My name is Tariq, I am based in UK and I am currently reading 'Spiritual verses' by Alan Williams. I am also going to meet the author this Sunday! very exciting.
Has anyone else read this translation? I guess I am trying to compare this translation with the others. I cannot understand much Persian but can read and write Urdu.
> Dear Brother Iljas ,The last selection is the 3rd line of ghazal No. 765 in > Foruzanfar's edition. I first saw this poem in Arberry's "The Mystical Poems > of Rumi," but at present I don't have the book at my disposal to give you > the ghazal number in his selection. This is a very inspiring poem which has > kindled a sense of great hope and longing in the soul of the seekers. The > peak of the poem is the last verse where Rumi assures the reader that > "without a doubt *everybody* will taste the Divine wine (or rather He will > make them taste the wine)." Here, the word *taste* is repeated four times, > thus revealing another great secret: that all humans will ultimately > experience the union with God. As far as my limited knowledge allows, Ibn > 'Arabi has expressed the same truth in a different way; that of the ultimate > salvation for all humanity. Below you can see the transliteration of the > first and the last verses of this ghazal. For the translation of the verses > you can refer to Arberry's "The Mystical Poems of Rumi."Regards > Behnaz > > 7999: hale nomiid nabaashii ke to raa Yaar beraanad garat emrooz beraanad, > na ke fardaat bekhvaanad 8007: hale khaamoosh kaz iin may hamegaan > raa becheshaanad, > becheshaanad, becheshaanad, becheshsanad > > > On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 2:44 AM, <daralmasnavi.org@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Dear Iljas, > > Salaam, > > > > Thanks for giving me the opportunity to do my first searches on the CD- > > ROM I received recently from sister Behnaz in Tehran: "Emissaary of > > the Sun" [Rasuul-e aaftaab], made by Dr. Abdol Karim Soroosh, which > > has the entire Persian text of Foruuzaanfar's edition of Divan-i > > Kabir, with excellent search capacity. > > > > Before this I could do English and Persian word searches of Masnavi > > and Rubaa`iyaat (Quatrains), but not for Ghazals or Tarji`aat/Tarji`- > > band poems from the Divan. Now I can do occasional searches (I've been > > getting requests about ghazals for years). It's easier to do from an > > accurate English translation, and much depends on making good guesses > > on what the original Perso-Arabic word may be. Somewhat uncommon or > > rare words are the best choices for searches. > > > > Per Annemarie Schimmel's book ("Look, This is Love: Poems of Rumi"), > > I've also been frustrated that no sources are listed (done > > meticulously in her other books). The first selection you asked about > > ("Learn from God's Messenger this alchemy..." is from Rumi's Ghazal > > No. 2675, first and third verses (found via a search for "alchemy"-- > > kiimiyaa). > > > > The second selection ("Weave not, like spiders...") is from Ghazal No. > > 922, ninth to eleventh verses (found via a search for "woof"--pood). > > > > The third selection is too difficult to search for (too many common > > words). > > > > Ibrahim > > > > > > > > Dear Ibrahim, > > On a similar topic as Unseen Rain. The following are translations by > > Annemarie Schimmel published in "Look! This is Love: Poems of Rumi" > > published by Shambhala in1991. I think they read very well as one poem > > but > > she has them on three separate pages. I've never been able to track > > them > > down or to find alternative translations. The book contains some notes > > but > > absolutely no information on the originals. > > Iljas > > Learn from God's Messenger this alchemy: > > Be satisfied with what He gives to you. > > And when the envoy "Grief" comes to your > > house, > > Then take him to your breast like an old > > friend! > > Weave not, like spiders, nets from grief's > > saliva > > In which the woof and warp are both > > decaying. > > But give the grief to Him, Who granted it, > > And do not talk about it anymore. > > When you are silent, His speech is your > > speech, > > When you don't weave, the weaver will be > > He. > > And if he closes before you > > the ways and passes all-- > > He'll show you a hidden pathway > > which nobody has known! > > > > > > > > > > >
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Salaam and thanks for your response, it was good to hear from you. I checked out the Arberry translations as I have the 2 volumes at home. I didn't realize that A. Schimmel had only translated a small part of the ghazal. Regarding the ultimate salvation of every man, perhaps this idea can also be found in Mathnawi V, 1795-1855 where the All Merciful addresses one party in the story as: "O offender against God and worshipper of the Devil" Later when on his way to Hell he looks back to the All Merciful, the All Merciful says: "O angels, bring him back to Us, for his inward eye has (ever) been (turned) towards hope... We will kindle up a goodly fire of grace, in order that no sin and fault, great or small may endure-- Such a fire that the least spark of the flame thereof is consuming (all) sin and necessity and free will. We will set a fire to the tenement of Man and make the thorns in it a spiritual garden of roses. We have sent from the Ninth Sphere (the highest Heaven) the elixir (namely), He will rectify for you your actions." What in sooth is Adam's (Man's) sovereignity and power of choice beside the Light of the Everlasting Abode?
According to Khosla (THE SUFISM OF RUMI) this is based on a Tradition of our Prophet. This he says is mentioned in Nicholson's Commentary but I no longer have that with me so cannot check.
I'd welcome your thoughts and Ibrahim's and others' on this idea of the ultimate salvation of everyone, according to Rumi or the Traditions or Islam more enerally. As far as I understand these verses just quoted from Mathnawi, the fire of Hell is ultimately a purifying fire and not a punitive fire.Doesn't this contradict Al Qur'an?
The last selection is the 3rd line of ghazal No. 765 in Foruzanfar's edition. I first saw this poem in Arberry's"The Mystical Poems of Rumi," but at present I don't have the book at my disposal to give you the ghazal number in his selection. This is a very inspiring poem which has kindled a sense of great hope and longing in the soul of the seekers. The peak of the poem is the last verse where Rumi assures the reader that "without a doubt *everybody* will taste the Divine wine (or rather He will make them taste the wine)." Here, the word *taste* is repeated four times, thus revealing another great secret: that all humans will ultimately experience the union with God. As far as my limited knowledge allows, Ibn 'Arabi has expressed the same truth in a different way; that of the ultimate salvation for all humanity.
Below you can see the transliteration of the first and the last verses of this ghazal. For the translation of the verses you can refer to Arberry's "The Mystical Poems of Rumi."
Regards Behnaz
7999: hale nomiid nabaashii ke to raa Yaar beraanad
Thanks for giving me the opportunity to do my first searches on the CD- ROM I received recently from sister Behnaz in Tehran: "Emissaary of the Sun" [Rasuul-e aaftaab], made by Dr. Abdol Karim Soroosh, which has the entire Persian text of Foruuzaanfar's edition of Divan-i Kabir, with excellent search capacity.
Before this I could do English and Persian word searches of Masnavi and Rubaa`iyaat (Quatrains), but not for Ghazals or Tarji`aat/Tarji`- band poems from the Divan. Now I can do occasional searches (I've been getting requests about ghazals for years). It's easier to do from an accurate English translation, and much depends on making good guesses on what the original Perso-Arabic word may be. Somewhat uncommon or rare words are the best choices for searches.
Per Annemarie Schimmel's book ("Look, This is Love: Poems of Rumi"), I've also been frustrated that no sources are listed (done meticulously in her other books). The first selection you asked about ("Learn from God's Messenger this alchemy..." is from Rumi's Ghazal No. 2675, first and third verses (found via a search for "alchemy"-- kiimiyaa).
The second selection ("Weave not, like spiders...") is from Ghazal No. 922, ninth to eleventh verses (found via a search for "woof"--pood).
The third selection is too difficult to search for (too many common words).
Ibrahim
Dear Ibrahim, On a similar topic as Unseen Rain. The following are translations by Annemarie Schimmel published in "Look! This is Love: Poems of Rumi" published by Shambhala in1991. I think they read very well as one poem but she has them on three separate pages. I've never been able to track them down or to find alternative translations. The book contains some notes but absolutely no information on the originals. Iljas Learn from God's Messenger this alchemy: Be satisfied with what He gives to you. And when the envoy "Grief" comes to your house, Then take him to your breast like an old friend! Weave not, like spiders, nets from grief's saliva In which the woof and warp are both decaying. But give the grief to Him, Who granted it, And do not talk about it anymore. When you are silent, His speech is your speech, When you don't weave, the weaver will be He. And if he closes before you the ways and passes all-- He'll show you a hidden pathway which nobody has known!
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My name is Tariq, I am based in UK and I am currently reading 'Spiritual verses' by Alan Williams. I am also going to meet the author this Sunday! very exciting.
Has anyone else read this translation? I guess I am trying to compare this translation with the others. I cannot understand much Persian but can read and write Urdu.
> Dear Brother Iljas ,The last selection is the 3rd line of ghazal No. 765 in > Foruzanfar's edition. I first saw this poem in Arberry's "The Mystical Poems > of Rumi," but at present I don't have the book at my disposal to give you > the ghazal number in his selection. This is a very inspiring poem which has > kindled a sense of great hope and longing in the soul of the seekers. The > peak of the poem is the last verse where Rumi assures the reader that > "without a doubt *everybody* will taste the Divine wine (or rather He will > make them taste the wine)." Here, the word *taste* is repeated four times, > thus revealing another great secret: that all humans will ultimately > experience the union with God. As far as my limited knowledge allows, Ibn > 'Arabi has expressed the same truth in a different way; that of the ultimate > salvation for all humanity. Below you can see the transliteration of the > first and the last verses of this ghazal. For the translation of the verses > you can refer to Arberry's "The Mystical Poems of Rumi."Regards > Behnaz > > 7999: hale nomiid nabaashii ke to raa Yaar beraanad garat emrooz beraanad, > na ke fardaat bekhvaanad 8007: hale khaamoosh kaz iin may hamegaan > raa becheshaanad, > becheshaanad, becheshaanad, becheshsanad > > > On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 2:44 AM, <daralmasnavi.org@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Dear Iljas, > > Salaam, > > > > Thanks for giving me the opportunity to do my first searches on the CD- > > ROM I received recently from sister Behnaz in Tehran: "Emissaary of > > the Sun" [Rasuul-e aaftaab], made by Dr. Abdol Karim Soroosh, which > > has the entire Persian text of Foruuzaanfar's edition of Divan-i > > Kabir, with excellent search capacity. > > > > Before this I could do English and Persian word searches of Masnavi > > and Rubaa`iyaat (Quatrains), but not for Ghazals or Tarji`aat/Tarji`- > > band poems from the Divan. Now I can do occasional searches (I've been > > getting requests about ghazals for years). It's easier to do from an > > accurate English translation, and much depends on making good guesses > > on what the original Perso-Arabic word may be. Somewhat uncommon or > > rare words are the best choices for searches. > > > > Per Annemarie Schimmel's book ("Look, This is Love: Poems of Rumi"), > > I've also been frustrated that no sources are listed (done > > meticulously in her other books). The first selection you asked about > > ("Learn from God's Messenger this alchemy..." is from Rumi's Ghazal > > No. 2675, first and third verses (found via a search for "alchemy"-- > > kiimiyaa). > > > > The second selection ("Weave not, like spiders...") is from Ghazal No. > > 922, ninth to eleventh verses (found via a search for "woof"--pood). > > > > The third selection is too difficult to search for (too many common > > words). > > > > Ibrahim > > > > > > > > Dear Ibrahim, > > On a similar topic as Unseen Rain. The following are translations by > > Annemarie Schimmel published in "Look! This is Love: Poems of Rumi" > > published by Shambhala in1991. I think they read very well as one poem > > but > > she has them on three separate pages. I've never been able to track > > them > > down or to find alternative translations. The book contains some notes > > but > > absolutely no information on the originals. > > Iljas > > Learn from God's Messenger this alchemy: > > Be satisfied with what He gives to you. > > And when the envoy "Grief" comes to your > > house, > > Then take him to your breast like an old > > friend! > > Weave not, like spiders, nets from grief's > > saliva > > In which the woof and warp are both > > decaying. > > But give the grief to Him, Who granted it, > > And do not talk about it anymore. > > When you are silent, His speech is your > > speech, > > When you don't weave, the weaver will be > > He. > > And if he closes before you > > the ways and passes all-- > > He'll show you a hidden pathway > > which nobody has known! > > > > > > > > > > >
And if he bars against you all ways and passages, He will show you a secret way, which no man knows. --translated by Arberry, "Mystical Poems of Rumi," p. 82 (Ghazal No. 765, verse 3)
[Verses 1 and 2: Say, do not despair because the Beloved drives you away; if He drives you away today, will He not call you back tomorrow? If he shuts the door on you, do not go away; be patient there, for after patience He will seat you in the place of honor.]
------------------------------------------ >And if he closes before you > the ways and passes all-- > He'll show you a hidden pathway > which nobody has known! --translated by Schimmel, "Look! This is Love," p. 105 (final page)
Ibrahim
On Dec 9, 12:40 am, "Behnaz Hashemipour" <behnaz.hash...@gmail.com> wrote: > Dear Brother Iljas ,The last selection is the 3rd line of ghazal No. 765 in > Foruzanfar's edition. I first saw this poem in Arberry's "The Mystical Poems > of Rumi," but at present I don't have the book at my disposal to give you > the ghazal number in his selection. This is a very inspiring poem which has > kindled a sense of great hope and longing in the soul of the seekers. The > peak of the poem is the last verse where Rumi assures the reader that > "without a doubt *everybody* will taste the Divine wine (or rather He will > make them taste the wine)." Here, the word *taste* is repeated four times, > thus revealing another great secret: that all humans will ultimately > experience the union with God. As far as my limited knowledge allows, Ibn > 'Arabi has expressed the same truth in a different way; that of the ultimate > salvation for all humanity. Below you can see the transliteration of the > first and the last verses of this ghazal. For the translation of the verses > you can refer to Arberry's "The Mystical Poems of Rumi."Regards > Behnaz > > 7999: hale nomiid nabaashii ke to raa Yaar beraanad garat emrooz beraanad, > na ke fardaat bekhvaanad 8007: hale khaamoosh kaz iin may hamegaan > raa becheshaanad, > becheshaanad, becheshaanad, becheshsanad > > On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 2:44 AM, <daralmasnavi....@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Dear Iljas, > > Salaam, > > > Thanks for giving me the opportunity to do my first searches on the CD- > > ROM I received recently from sister Behnaz in Tehran: "Emissaary of > > the Sun" [Rasuul-e aaftaab], made by Dr. Abdol Karim Soroosh, which > > has the entire Persian text of Foruuzaanfar's edition of Divan-i > > Kabir, with excellent search capacity. > > > Before this I could do English and Persian word searches of Masnavi > > and Rubaa`iyaat (Quatrains), but not for Ghazals or Tarji`aat/Tarji`- > > band poems from the Divan. Now I can do occasional searches (I've been > > getting requests about ghazals for years). It's easier to do from an > > accurate English translation, and much depends on making good guesses > > on what the original Perso-Arabic word may be. Somewhat uncommon or > > rare words are the best choices for searches. > > > Per Annemarie Schimmel's book ("Look, This is Love: Poems of Rumi"), > > I've also been frustrated that no sources are listed (done > > meticulously in her other books). The first selection you asked about > > ("Learn from God's Messenger this alchemy..." is from Rumi's Ghazal > > No. 2675, first and third verses (found via a search for "alchemy"-- > > kiimiyaa). > > > The second selection ("Weave not, like spiders...") is from Ghazal No. > > 922, ninth to eleventh verses (found via a search for "woof"--pood). > > > The third selection is too difficult to search for (too many common > > words). > > > Ibrahim > > > Dear Ibrahim, > > On a similar topic as Unseen Rain. The following are translations by > > Annemarie Schimmel published in "Look! This is Love: Poems of Rumi" > > published by Shambhala in1991. I think they read very well as one poem > > but > > she has them on three separate pages. I've never been able to track > > them > > down or to find alternative translations. The book contains some notes > > but > > absolutely no information on the originals. > > Iljas > > Learn from God's Messenger this alchemy: > > Be satisfied with what He gives to you. > > And when the envoy "Grief" comes to your > > house, > > Then take him to your breast like an old > > friend! > > Weave not, like spiders, nets from grief's > > saliva > > In which the woof and warp are both > > decaying. > > But give the grief to Him, Who granted it, > > And do not talk about it anymore. > > When you are silent, His speech is your > > speech, > > When you don't weave, the weaver will be > > He. > > And if he closes before you > > the ways and passes all-- > > He'll show you a hidden pathway > > which nobody has known!
The last selection is the 3rd line of ghazal No. 765 in Foruzanfar's edition. I first saw this poem in Arberry's"The Mystical Poems of Rumi," but at present I don't have the book at my disposal to give you the ghazal number in his selection. This is a very inspiring poem which has kindled a sense of great hope and longing in the soul of the seekers. The peak of the poem is the last verse where Rumi assures the reader that "without a doubt *everybody* will taste the Divine wine (or rather He will make them taste the wine)." Here, the word *taste* is repeated four times, thus revealing another great secret: that all humans will ultimately experience the union with God. As far as my limited knowledge allows, Ibn 'Arabi has expressed the same truth in a different way; that of the ultimate salvation for all humanity.
Below you can see the transliteration of the first and the last verses of this ghazal. For the translation of the verses you can refer to Arberry's "The Mystical Poems of Rumi."
Regards Behnaz
7999: hale nomiid nabaashii ke to raa Yaar beraanad
Thanks for giving me the opportunity to do my first searches on the CD- ROM I received recently from sister Behnaz in Tehran: "Emissaary of the Sun" [Rasuul-e aaftaab], made by Dr. Abdol Karim Soroosh, which has the entire Persian text of Foruuzaanfar's edition of Divan-i Kabir, with excellent search capacity.
Before this I could do English and Persian word searches of Masnavi and Rubaa`iyaat (Quatrains), but not for Ghazals or Tarji`aat/Tarji`- band poems from the Divan. Now I can do occasional searches (I've been getting requests about ghazals for years). It's easier to do from an accurate English translation, and much depends on making good guesses on what the original Perso-Arabic word may be. Somewhat uncommon or rare words are the best choices for searches.
Per Annemarie Schimmel's book ("Look, This is Love: Poems of Rumi"), I've also been frustrated that no sources are listed (done meticulously in her other books). The first selection you asked about ("Learn from God's Messenger this alchemy..." is from Rumi's Ghazal No. 2675, first and third verses (found via a search for "alchemy"-- kiimiyaa).
The second selection ("Weave not, like spiders...") is from Ghazal No. 922, ninth to eleventh verses (found via a search for "woof"--pood).
The third selection is too difficult to search for (too many common words).
Ibrahim
Dear Ibrahim, On a similar topic as Unseen Rain. The following are translations by Annemarie Schimmel published in "Look! This is Love: Poems of Rumi" published by Shambhala in1991. I think they read very well as one poem but she has them on three separate pages. I've never been able to track them down or to find alternative translations. The book contains some notes but absolutely no information on the originals. Iljas Learn from God's Messenger this alchemy: Be satisfied with what He gives to you. And when the envoy "Grief" comes to your house, Then take him to your breast like an old friend! Weave not, like spiders, nets from grief's saliva In which the woof and warp are both decaying. But give the grief to Him, Who granted it, And do not talk about it anymore. When you are silent, His speech is your speech, When you don't weave, the weaver will be He. And if he closes before you the ways and passes all-- He'll show you a hidden pathway which nobody has known!
--~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Dar-al-Masnavi" group. To post to this group, send email to dar-al-masnavi@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to dar-al-masnavi+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/dar-al-masnavi?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
On Dec 7, 11:14 am, daralmasnavi....@gmail.com wrote: > Dear Iljas, > Salaam, > > Thanks for giving me the opportunity to do my first searches on the CD- > ROM I received recently from sister Behnaz in Tehran: "Emissaary of > the Sun" [Rasuul-e aaftaab], made by Dr. Abdol Karim Soroosh, which > has the entire Persian text of Foruuzaanfar's edition of Divan-i > Kabir, with excellent search capacity. > > Before this I could do English and Persian word searches of Masnavi > and Rubaa`iyaat (Quatrains), but not for Ghazals or Tarji`aat/Tarji`- > band poems from the Divan. Now I can do occasional searches (I've been > getting requests about ghazals for years). It's easier to do from an > accurate English translation, and much depends on making good guesses > on what the original Perso-Arabic word may be. Somewhat uncommon or > rare words are the best choices for searches. > > Per Annemarie Schimmel's book ("Look, This is Love: Poems of Rumi"), > I've also been frustrated that no sources are listed (done > meticulously in her other books). The first selection you asked about > ("Learn from God's Messenger this alchemy..." is from Rumi's Ghazal > No. 2675, first and third verses (found via a search for "alchemy"-- > kiimiyaa). > > The second selection ("Weave not, like spiders...") is from Ghazal No. > 922, ninth to eleventh verses (found via a search for "woof"--pood). > > The third selection is too difficult to search for (too many common > words). > > Ibrahim > > Dear Ibrahim, > On a similar topic as Unseen Rain. The following are translations by > Annemarie Schimmel published in "Look! This is Love: Poems of Rumi" > published by Shambhala in1991. I think they read very well as one poem > but > she has them on three separate pages. I've never been able to track > them > down or to find alternative translations. The book contains some notes > but > absolutely no information on the originals. > Iljas > Learn from God's Messenger this alchemy: > Be satisfied with what He gives to you. > And when the envoy "Grief" comes to your > house, > Then take him to your breast like an old > friend! > Weave not, like spiders, nets from grief's > saliva > In which the woof and warp are both > decaying. > But give the grief to Him, Who granted it, > And do not talk about it anymore. > When you are silent, His speech is your > speech, > When you don't weave, the weaver will be > He. > And if he closes before you > the ways and passes all-- > He'll show you a hidden pathway > which nobody has known!
Thanks for giving me the opportunity to do my first searches on the CD- ROM I received recently from sister Behnaz in Tehran: "Emissaary of the Sun" [Rasuul-e aaftaab], made by Dr. Abdol Karim Soroosh, which has the entire Persian text of Foruuzaanfar's edition of Divan-i Kabir, with excellent search capacity.
Before this I could do English and Persian word searches of Masnavi and Rubaa`iyaat (Quatrains), but not for Ghazals or Tarji`aat/Tarji`- band poems from the Divan. Now I can do occasional searches (I've been getting requests about ghazals for years). It's easier to do from an accurate English translation, and much depends on making good guesses on what the original Perso-Arabic word may be. Somewhat uncommon or rare words are the best choices for searches.
Per Annemarie Schimmel's book ("Look, This is Love: Poems of Rumi"), I've also been frustrated that no sources are listed (done meticulously in her other books). The first selection you asked about ("Learn from God's Messenger this alchemy..." is from Rumi's Ghazal No. 2675, first and third verses (found via a search for "alchemy"-- kiimiyaa).
The second selection ("Weave not, like spiders...") is from Ghazal No. 922, ninth to eleventh verses (found via a search for "woof"--pood).
The third selection is too difficult to search for (too many common words).
Ibrahim
Dear Ibrahim, On a similar topic as Unseen Rain. The following are translations by Annemarie Schimmel published in "Look! This is Love: Poems of Rumi" published by Shambhala in1991. I think they read very well as one poem but she has them on three separate pages. I've never been able to track them down or to find alternative translations. The book contains some notes but absolutely no information on the originals. Iljas Learn from God's Messenger this alchemy: Be satisfied with what He gives to you. And when the envoy "Grief" comes to your house, Then take him to your breast like an old friend! Weave not, like spiders, nets from grief's saliva In which the woof and warp are both decaying. But give the grief to Him, Who granted it, And do not talk about it anymore. When you are silent, His speech is your speech, When you don't weave, the weaver will be He. And if he closes before you the ways and passes all-- He'll show you a hidden pathway which nobody has known!
Have written a reply to you (are you and your daughter still looking for Rumi poems for her class?), but thought it deserved a new topic title: Divan Searches.
Ibrahim
------------
On Dec 7, 2:20 am, "Iljas Baker" <iljasba...@gmail.com> wrote: > Dear Ibrahim, > > On a similar topic as Unseen Rain. The following are translations by > Annemarie Schimmel published in "Look! This is Love: Poems of Rumi" > published by Shambhala in1991. I think they read very well as one poem but > she has them on three separate pages. I've never been able to track them > down or to find alternative translations. The book contains some notes but > absolutely no information on the originals. > > Iljas > > Learn from God's Messenger this alchemy: > Be satisfied with what He gives to you. > And when the envoy "Grief" comes to your > house, > Then take him to your breast like an old > friend! > > Weave not, like spiders, nets from grief's > saliva > In which the woof and warp are both > decaying. > But give the grief to Him, Who granted it, > And do not talk about it anymore. > When you are silent, His speech is your > speech, > When you don't weave, the weaver will be > He. > > And if he closes before you > the ways and passes all-- > He'll show you a hidden pathway > which nobody has known!
The purpose of what was written by me has been accomplished, because the "inside" meaning of the words has been communicated ("To leaders of..." in my article, "The Leader of..."), and hopefully there will be a good resolution and greater unity during the coming year, inshaa 'llaah. There should be no need to continue this topic on this discussion group.
Ibrahim
On Dec 7, 12:37 am, sipko <sipkodenb...@gmail.com> wrote: > Khatir > > The meaning is in the words > But still, there are words > and there are meanings -- > I know this from TV -- > What is it > that you really want to say? > > Sipoko > > On Dec 3, 3:34 am, daralmasnavi....@gmail.com wrote: > > > Kabir Heminski has requested that the following be posted on this > > Google Group: > > > Kabir Helminski first received recognition as a Mevlevi Shaikh from > > the late Celalettin Celebi in 1990. The Threshold Society is a > > spiritual and educational community in the Mevlevi tradition, and as > > such we support Faruk Hemdem Celebi, the current leader of the Mevlevi > > Tariqah, as a matter of principle, in humility and love for the > > tradition. > > > --------------------- > > This is in response to what I had posted: > > > The organization you asked about had the support of the former chief > > leader of the Mevlevis until he died in 1996. Since then, it has > > become an independent Mevlevi organization that has lacked the > > approval/support of the present chief leader (the son and successor of > > the former one). > > > Ibrahim
On a similar topic as Unseen Rain. The following are translations by Annemarie Schimmel published in "Look! This is Love: Poems of Rumi" published by Shambhala in1991. I think they read very well as one poem but she has them on three separate pages. I've never been able to track them down or to find alternative translations. The book contains some notes but absolutely no information on the originals.
Iljas
Learn from God's Messenger this alchemy: Be satisfied with what He gives to you. And when the envoy "Grief" comes to your house, Then take him to your breast like an old friend!
Weave not, like spiders, nets from grief's saliva In which the woof and warp are both decaying. But give the grief to Him, Who granted it, And do not talk about it anymore. When you are silent, His speech is your speech, When you don't weave, the weaver will be He.
And if he closes before you the ways and passes all-- He'll show you a hidden pathway which nobody has known!
--~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Dar-al-Masnavi" group. To post to this group, send email to dar-al-masnavi@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to dar-al-masnavi+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/dar-al-masnavi?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
The meaning is in the words But still, there are words and there are meanings -- I know this from TV -- What is it that you really want to say?
Sipoko
On Dec 3, 3:34 am, daralmasnavi....@gmail.com wrote: > Kabir Heminski has requested that the following be posted on this > Google Group: > > Kabir Helminski first received recognition as a Mevlevi Shaikh from > the late Celalettin Celebi in 1990. The Threshold Society is a > spiritual and educational community in the Mevlevi tradition, and as > such we support Faruk Hemdem Celebi, the current leader of the Mevlevi > Tariqah, as a matter of principle, in humility and love for the > tradition. > > --------------------- > This is in response to what I had posted: > > The organization you asked about had the support of the former chief > leader of the Mevlevis until he died in 1996. Since then, it has > become an independent Mevlevi organization that has lacked the > approval/support of the present chief leader (the son and successor of > the former one). > > Ibrahim
This is not a Rumi poem. Rather, it is a combination of popularized versions of quatrains (not accurate translations) put together by someone with the appearance of a single poem and copied on the Internet. Perhaps that answers your question. Otherwise some additional information has been added by me after each quatrain below.
Ibrahim ----------------------
On Dec 6, 12:12 pm, "rain.eli...@gmail.com" <rain.eli...@gmail.com> wrote: > Marhaba everybody > > Is there another translation for this poem?! > > UNSEEN RAIN > by Rumi > > My work is to carry this love > as comfort for those who long for You; > to go everywhere You've walked > and gaze at the pressed-down dirt. --from a poetic interpretive version by Coleman Barks, based on a translation by John Moyne, "Unseen Rain: :Quatrains of Rumi," 1986, p. 82 [Rumi's Quatrain No. 1288]
> What I most want > is to spring out of this personality, > then to sit apart from that leaping. > I've lived too long where I can be reached. --from a poetic interpretive version by Coleman Barks, based on a translation by John Moyne, "Unseen Rain: :Quatrains of Rumi," 1986, p. 63 [Rumi's Quatrain No. 1163]
> Who says the eternal being does not exist? > Who says the sun has gone out? > Someone who climbs up on the roof, > and closes his eyes tight, and says, > --I don't see anything. --from a poetic interpretive version by Coleman Barks, based on a translation by John Moyne, "Unseen Rain: :Quatrains of Rumi," 1986, p. 42 [Rumi's Quatrain No. 533]
> .....With one silent laugh > You tilted the night > and the garden ran with stars. --from a "poetic recreation' Andrew Harvey (possibly versioned by Harvey from a French translation by Eva de Vitray-Meyerivitch) "Speaking Flame: Rumi," 1989, p. 66 (unverified as a genuine Rumi quatrain, because Harvey does not list sources for his versions, of which I was able to find most and compare with the Persian texts, but not this one).
> from UNSEEN RAIN by John Moyne and Coleman Barks
My work is to carry this love as comfort for those who long for You; to go everywhere You've walked and gaze at the pressed-down dirt.
What I most want is to spring out of this personality, then to sit apart from that leaping. I've lived too long where I can be reached.
Who says the eternal being does not exist? Who says the sun has gone out? Someone who climbs up on the roof, and closes his eyes tight, and says, --I don't see anything.
.....With one silent laugh You tilted the night and the garden ran with stars.
You don't really need Nicholson's Persian edition, unless you need it to use the Masnavi concordance "Az daryaa ba-daryaa" (for which it Is essential to find the corresponding verses in Nicholson's edition). And you don't need those four huge volumes if you have the CD "Mathnavi in the 2nd mirror" done by Dr. Abdol Karim Soroosh (that was recently sent to me from Iran), which contains al 6 books of Masnavi (with audio tracks for Book 2, and excellent search capacity). And Dr. Soroosh's numbering is close to that in Nicholson's Persian volumes (in the last part of Book 1 there is a difference of 7 verses; in the last part of Book 6, there is a difference of 1 verse).
Or, alternatively, you can get (also from Iran) the Persian edition I use, edited by Dr. Towfiiq SobHaanii, which has Nicholson's numbering next to Sobhani's numbering. As you probably know, the first 2 1/3 Books of Nicholson's edition are defective in that they are based on very early manuscripts, but not the oldest one (the "Konya MS"). Nicholson got a copy of that and based the rest of his Persian text and translation on that, and he included indexes that show the corrections (one in Persian, that is more detailed than you probably need; one in English, at the end of Nicholson's translation of Book 4, which is very useful). The Sobhani and Soroosh editions are, of course, entirely based on the "Konya MS."
Another alternative is a CD-ROM that a friend of mine is working on (to be available in about 2 years, inshaa 'llaah), with the permission of Nicholson's publisher: it will have both the full English and Persian texts, as well as links to Nicholson's corrections matching his translation with how it should be according to the Konya MS, plus an English translation of all the obscene words and verses that Nicholson translated from Persian to Latin.
Ibrahim
---------------------
On Nov 29, 9:41 pm, Casey <mcg...@cox.net> wrote: > Salaam bar shoma! > > I'm wanting to relay a bit of information I received from the David > Brown Book Company, the North American distributors of Nicholson's > translations of the Masnavi. They recently informed me, upon my > having placed an order for the entire set of Nicholson's persian > edition of the Masnavi, that the persian edition was no longer > available, though there is intended to be a limited reprinting of the > persian edition in mid-2009. > > This being said, and considering my desire to purchase Nicholson's > persian edition, I must ask, does anyone know of any other source > (either commercial or an individual) who has and is willing to sell > the entire set of Nicholson's persian edition of the Masnavi? > > My best regards to you all, and, in particular, Sheikh Gamard. > > Khoda Negahdar, > Casey
Kabir Heminski has requested that the following be posted on this Google Group:
Kabir Helminski first received recognition as a Mevlevi Shaikh from the late Celalettin Celebi in 1990. The Threshold Society is a spiritual and educational community in the Mevlevi tradition, and as such we support Faruk Hemdem Celebi, the current leader of the Mevlevi Tariqah, as a matter of principle, in humility and love for the tradition.
--------------------- This is in response to what I had posted:
The organization you asked about had the support of the former chief leader of the Mevlevis until he died in 1996. Since then, it has become an independent Mevlevi organization that has lacked the approval/support of the present chief leader (the son and successor of the former one).
Thank you million Mr Ibrahim. Its realy hard to find good translation of Rumi's poems.
On Nov 30, 2:04 am, daralmasnavi....@gmail.com wrote: > This is a very interesting poem of six verses (Mawlana's Ghazal No. > 950). However, it cannot be understood via Coleman Barks' contorted > "poetic interpretation" ("The Essential Rumi", pp. 21-22), which > presents Mawlana as more of a Buddhist than a sufi. Below is a > translation from Turkish that is clearer, to which I have (rather > quickly) added some literal translations. > > It is necessary to understand a few Islamic sufi teachings first. God > creates from nothingness ("When He wills something (to exist), His > command is only that He says to it, 'Be!' And it is"--Qur'an 36:84). > The "world of nothingness" is not a vacuum or a blank, but is the > Unperceived world [`aalam-e ghayb] of spiritual realities, such as > angels, Paradise, unseen expressions of the infinite Names and > Attributes of God, etc. "Annihilation" [fanaa} of self/ego is a major > goal of the sufi mystic, which leads to awareness of what is permanent > [baqaa] in the Presence of God. Mawlana said: "As long as a person has > not become annihilated [fanaa], there is no way (for him) to the Court > of (Divine Majesty./ What is the Ascension [mi`raaj] to Heaven? This > nothingness./ For the lovers (of God), nothingness [neestii] is (the > only) creed and religion." (Masnavi 6:232-33) "Everything will perish > except His Face." (Qur'an 28:88) "All that is upon (the earth) will > pass away [faan-in], but the Face of your Lord will abide [yabqaa], > full of Majesty and Glory" (Qur'an 55:26-72) > > --------------------------- > Bravo for that Nothingness,/ Which grabbed and ran with our existence. > [[lit.: "which seized our existence"]] > In fact, the world of soul is created/ by the love of Nothingness.* > [[lit., "The world of soul came into existence"]] > > Wherever Nothingness touches,/ Existence diminishes and ends.* > What kind of nothing is that?/ When it comes, it adds more existence > to existence.* > > I have been acquiring my being/ From Absence for many years. [[lit., > "I have been taking existence from Nothingness..."]] > Yet Absence snatched my being with one look.* [[lit., "Non-existence > seized everything from me with one glance"[[ > > I have saved myself from self/ And the worries of tomorrow. [[lit., > "It escaped from self, before, and the soul's thoughts about death"]] > I have been saved from fear and hope,/ The bondage of, "Will or won't" > and "yes or no." [[lit., "it escaped from 'May it be' and 'it was'"]] > > The mountain of self is like a piece of straw// in front of the wind > of Nothingness.* [[lit., "The mountain of (self-) existence"]] > Is there any self that this wind won't blow away?* [[lit., "What > mountain (is there) that non-existence cannot seize it like straw?"]] > > What is self?/ What is Nothingness?/ What is straw?/ And what is a > mountain? [[lit., "What is (self-) existence"]] > Come O words, get out of this door./ Come down from the roof. [[lit., > "Damn it! Get out of the door, O metaphors and explanations!"]] > --translated from a Turkish translation (by Golpinarli) by Nevit > Ergin,"Mevlana Celaleddijn Rumi: Divan-i Kebir: Meters 5, 6, 7a", > 11995, p. 274 > > COMMENTS > *The world of soul came into existence from love of non-being: Through > love of the ecstasy and bliss of "non-existence", souls came into > existence. > > *What kind of nothing is that?/ When it comes, it adds more existence > to existence: Barks' interpretation is wrong here. The spiritual being > of the sufi becomes increased from experiences/states of "non- > existence" or passing away from awareness of the everyday self. > > *Wherever Nothingness touches,/ Existence diminishes and ends: This > may refer to when an ecstatic experience of "no-existence" comes upon > a mystic and self-centered existence vanishes for a while. > > *Non-existence seized everything from me with one glance [naZar]: This > may refer to the "glance of favor" [naZar-e `inaayat], the gaze of a > sufi master that causes the disciple to have an ecstatic experience of > "non-existence". > > *The mountain of (self-) existence is like a piece of straw: See > Mawlana's story about the gnat that complained to Solomon that when > the wind came, he was blown away (Masnavi, Book III:4624)-- "Even such > is the seeker of the Court of God: when God comes, the seeker is > naughted." (Nicholson's translation). > > Ibrahim > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > On Nov 27, 12:46 pm, "rain.eli...@gmail.com" <rain.eli...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > > Hello everbody > > I need help to understand this poem: > > > This World Which Is Made of Our Love for Emptiness > > > Praise to the emptiness that blanks out existence. Existence: > > This place made from our love for that emptiness! > > > Yet somehow comes emptiness, > > this existence goes. > > > Praise to that happening, over and over! > > For years I pulled my own existence out of emptiness. > > > Then one swoop, one swing of the arm, > > that work is over. > > > Free of who I was, free of presence, free of dangerous fear, hope, > > free of mountainous wanting. > > > The here-and-now mountain is a tiny piece of a piece of straw > > blown off into emptiness. > > > These words I'm saying so much begin to lose meaning: > > Existence, emptiness, mountain, straw: > > > Words and what they try to say swept > > out the window, down the slant of the roof.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -
There are many Nicholson's persian editions in Tehran, with and without persian interpretations. The one I recommend is the 7 volume one (with Nicholson's interpretation translated into persian) from Elmi-Farhangi publications(Nashr-e Elmi-Farhangi). The translator is Hassan Laahooti.
I guess you can buy it online, too.
Regards,
Panevis.
--- On Sun, 11/30/08, Casey <mcghee@cox.net> wrote:
From: Casey <mcghee@cox.net> Subject: [Dar-al-Masnavi] Nicholson Persian Edition To: "Dar-al-Masnavi" <dar-al-masnavi@googlegroups.com> Date: Sunday, November 30, 2008, 9:11 AM
Salaam bar shoma!
I'm wanting to relay a bit of information I received from the David Brown Book Company, the North American distributors of Nicholson's translations of the Masnavi. They recently informed me, upon my having placed an order for the entire set of Nicholson's persian edition of the Masnavi, that the persian edition was no longer available, though there is intended to be a limited reprinting of the persian edition in mid-2009.
This being said, and considering my desire to purchase Nicholson's persian edition, I must ask, does anyone know of any other source (either commercial or an individual) who has and is willing to sell the entire set of Nicholson's persian edition of the Masnavi?
My best regards to you all, and, in particular, Sheikh Gamard.
Khoda Negahdar, Casey
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I'm wanting to relay a bit of information I received from the David Brown Book Company, the North American distributors of Nicholson's translations of the Masnavi. They recently informed me, upon my having placed an order for the entire set of Nicholson's persian edition of the Masnavi, that the persian edition was no longer available, though there is intended to be a limited reprinting of the persian edition in mid-2009.
This being said, and considering my desire to purchase Nicholson's persian edition, I must ask, does anyone know of any other source (either commercial or an individual) who has and is willing to sell the entire set of Nicholson's persian edition of the Masnavi?
My best regards to you all, and, in particular, Sheikh Gamard.
This is a very interesting poem of six verses (Mawlana's Ghazal No. 950). However, it cannot be understood via Coleman Barks' contorted "poetic interpretation" ("The Essential Rumi", pp. 21-22), which presents Mawlana as more of a Buddhist than a sufi. Below is a translation from Turkish that is clearer, to which I have (rather quickly) added some literal translations.
It is necessary to understand a few Islamic sufi teachings first. God creates from nothingness ("When He wills something (to exist), His command is only that He says to it, 'Be!' And it is"--Qur'an 36:84). The "world of nothingness" is not a vacuum or a blank, but is the Unperceived world [`aalam-e ghayb] of spiritual realities, such as angels, Paradise, unseen expressions of the infinite Names and Attributes of God, etc. "Annihilation" [fanaa} of self/ego is a major goal of the sufi mystic, which leads to awareness of what is permanent [baqaa] in the Presence of God. Mawlana said: "As long as a person has not become annihilated [fanaa], there is no way (for him) to the Court of (Divine Majesty./ What is the Ascension [mi`raaj] to Heaven? This nothingness./ For the lovers (of God), nothingness [neestii] is (the only) creed and religion." (Masnavi 6:232-33) "Everything will perish except His Face." (Qur'an 28:88) "All that is upon (the earth) will pass away [faan-in], but the Face of your Lord will abide [yabqaa], full of Majesty and Glory" (Qur'an 55:26-72)
--------------------------- Bravo for that Nothingness,/ Which grabbed and ran with our existence. [[lit.: "which seized our existence"]] In fact, the world of soul is created/ by the love of Nothingness.* [[lit., "The world of soul came into existence"]]
Wherever Nothingness touches,/ Existence diminishes and ends.* What kind of nothing is that?/ When it comes, it adds more existence to existence.*
I have been acquiring my being/ From Absence for many years. [[lit., "I have been taking existence from Nothingness..."]] Yet Absence snatched my being with one look.* [[lit., "Non-existence seized everything from me with one glance"[[
I have saved myself from self/ And the worries of tomorrow. [[lit., "It escaped from self, before, and the soul's thoughts about death"]] I have been saved from fear and hope,/ The bondage of, "Will or won't" and "yes or no." [[lit., "it escaped from 'May it be' and 'it was'"]]
The mountain of self is like a piece of straw// in front of the wind of Nothingness.* [[lit., "The mountain of (self-) existence"]] Is there any self that this wind won't blow away?* [[lit., "What mountain (is there) that non-existence cannot seize it like straw?"]]
What is self?/ What is Nothingness?/ What is straw?/ And what is a mountain? [[lit., "What is (self-) existence"]] Come O words, get out of this door./ Come down from the roof. [[lit., "Damn it! Get out of the door, O metaphors and explanations!"]] --translated from a Turkish translation (by Golpinarli) by Nevit Ergin,"Mevlana Celaleddijn Rumi: Divan-i Kebir: Meters 5, 6, 7a", 11995, p. 274
COMMENTS *The world of soul came into existence from love of non-being: Through love of the ecstasy and bliss of "non-existence", souls came into existence.
*What kind of nothing is that?/ When it comes, it adds more existence to existence: Barks' interpretation is wrong here. The spiritual being of the sufi becomes increased from experiences/states of "non- existence" or passing away from awareness of the everyday self.
*Wherever Nothingness touches,/ Existence diminishes and ends: This may refer to when an ecstatic experience of "no-existence" comes upon a mystic and self-centered existence vanishes for a while.
*Non-existence seized everything from me with one glance [naZar]: This may refer to the "glance of favor" [naZar-e `inaayat], the gaze of a sufi master that causes the disciple to have an ecstatic experience of "non-existence".
*The mountain of (self-) existence is like a piece of straw: See Mawlana's story about the gnat that complained to Solomon that when the wind came, he was blown away (Masnavi, Book III:4624)-- "Even such is the seeker of the Court of God: when God comes, the seeker is naughted." (Nicholson's translation).
Ibrahim
~~~~~~~~~~~~
On Nov 27, 12:46 pm, "rain.eli...@gmail.com" <rain.eli...@gmail.com> wrote: > Hello everbody > I need help to understand this poem: > > This World Which Is Made of Our Love for Emptiness > > Praise to the emptiness that blanks out existence. Existence: > This place made from our love for that emptiness! > > Yet somehow comes emptiness, > this existence goes. > > Praise to that happening, over and over! > For years I pulled my own existence out of emptiness. > > Then one swoop, one swing of the arm, > that work is over. > > Free of who I was, free of presence, free of dangerous fear, hope, > free of mountainous wanting. > > The here-and-now mountain is a tiny piece of a piece of straw > blown off into emptiness. > > These words I'm saying so much begin to lose meaning: > Existence, emptiness, mountain, straw: > > Words and what they try to say swept > out the window, down the slant of the roof.
Panevis has kindly posted the entire Persian text for this ghazal. If you cannot read it via your browser, let me know and I can send you a jpeg of the Persian text.
Schimmel, "The Triumphal Sun", p. 42: "Where am I and where is poetry? But into me breathes that one Turk who comes and says to me: 'Hey, who are you?'" [man ko-ja shi`r az ko-jaa liikin ba-man dar mee-deh-ad aan yakee torkee ke aay-ad gooy-ad-am "kiy musan" [[the rhyme requires "an" endings, such as for this Turkish phrase; it isnot "sen kimsin" as you have guessed]] --Divan [ghazal number] 1949, [verse number] 20586 [[Schimmel incorrectly cited this verse as lines 20587-88]]
"Where is the poem? Where am I? But one of the Turks comes, whistles in my ear. I ask him, 'Hey how are you?' [correct trans.: "he says to me"]
Who is Turk, who is Tajik? Who is the one from the land of Rum? Who is Negro? You are the one who know everything, hair to hair.
A poem is the dress of another poem, But who is inside of the poem? Either a Houri who adorns the dress, Or Satan who takes off the dress.
We will remove his poem from our head and throw it away. Take the houri in our arms, Faailaatun, Faailaatun, Faailaatun, Faailaat" [[correct transliteration: ...Faa`ilatun, Faa`ilan]] --translated by Nevit Ergin (from the Turkish translation by Golpinarli), Mevlânâ Celâleddîn Rumi: Dîvân-i Kebir, Meter 8b," 1998, p. 58
Hz, Mawlana may have referred to the verse you quoted in "Discourses" (Fiihi maa fiihii, Discourse No. 16), but this seems doubtful to me (the wording is not identical), although Schimmel asserted that the passage from the Discourses "..begins with a verse from the Divân where the last question is put in Turkish").
"It is a habit with me, that I do not desire that any heart should be distressed through me... I am affectionate to such a degree that when these friends come to me, for fear that they may be wearied I speak poetry so that they may be occupied with that. Otherwise, what have I to do with poetry [agar na, man az ko-jaa? shi`r az ko-jaa?], and there is nothing worse in my eyes than that, It has been incumbent upon me; as when a man plunges his hands into tripe and washes it out for the sake of a guest's appetite, because the guest's appetite is for tripe....What can I do? In my own country and amongst my own people there is no occupation more shameful than poetry. If I had remained in my own country, I would have lived in harmony with their temperament and would have practised what they desired, such as lecturing and composing books, preaching and admonishing, observing abstinence and doing all the outward acts." --A.J. Arberry "The Discourses of Rumi," 1961, pp. 85-86.
Ibrahim
--------------------------------
On Nov 25, 10:08 pm, CG <cgren...@gmail.com> wrote: > In Annemarie Schimmel's "Triumphal Sun" and also her "As Through a > Veil", the author mentions a verse from Rumi's Divan in which he says > > "Where am I and where is poetry? But into me breathes that one Turk > who comes to me and says: 'Sen kimsin? [in Turkish, 'who are > you?']..." > > It seems that Rumi himself re-quoted this line himself in Fihi ma > fihi. > > She says that this is "Divan 1949/20587 88" in the Foruzanfar > numbering. Unfortunately, my library doesn't have Foruzanfar, only > some other Iranian editions from the mid-1950s, so I can't find this > poem. The rubai that I've found which is numbered 1949 is completely > different. I would be very thankful if someone could point to me > another way to find this poem, preferably in Persian. What do those > other numbers in Schimmel's citation mean? And if the poem is short, > could you maybe even type it up? > > Thank you, > Carlos
I found the Ghazal in Dr Foroozanfar's edition under number 1949. I paste the Persian text of all the Ghazal below. I've marked the verse you mean, in blue color.
Regards,
Panevis.
1949 آنچ می آید ز وصفت این زمانم در دهن بر مرید مرده خوانم اندراندازد کفن
خود مرید من نمیرد کآب حیوان خورده است وانگهان از دست کی از ساقیان ذوالمنن
ای نجات زندگان و ای حیات مردگان از درونم بت تراشی وز برونم بت شکن
ور براندازد ز رویت باد دولت پرده ای از حیا گل آب گردد نی چمن ماند نه من
ور می لب بازگیری از گلستان ساعتی از خمار و سرگرانی هر سمن گردد سه من
ور زمانی بی دلان را دم دهی و دل دهی جان رهد از ننگ ما و ما رهیم از خویشتن
گر ندزدید از تو چیزی دل چرا آویخته ست چاره نبود دزد را در عاقبت ز آویختن
گر چنین آویختن حاصل شدی هر دزد را از حریصی دزد گشتی جمله عالم مرد و زن
اندر این آویختن کمتر کراماتی که هست آب حیوان خوردن است و تا ابد باقی شدن
چاشنی سوز شمعت گر به عنقا برزدی پر چو پروانه بدادی سر نهادی در لگن
صورت صنع تو آمد ساعتی در بتکده گه شمن بت می شد آن دم گاه بت می شد شمن
هر زمانی نقش می شد نعت احمد بر صلیب سر وحدت می شنیدند آشکارا از وثن
عشقت ای خوب ختن بر دل سواره گشت گفت این چنین مرکب بباید تاختن را تا ختن
شور تو عقلم ستد با فتنه ها دربافتم شور و بی عقلی بباید بافتن را با فتن
من کجا شعر از کجا لیکن به من در می دمد آن یکی ترکی که آید گویدم هی کیمسن
ترک کی تاجیک کی زنگی کی رومی کی مالک الملکی که داند مو به مو سر و علن
جامه شعر است شعر و تا درون شعر کیست یا که حوری جامه زیب و یا که دیوی جامه کن
شعرش از سر برکشیم و حور را در بر کشیم فاعلاتن فاعلاتن فاعلاتن فاعلن
--- On Wed, 11/26/08, CG <cgrenier@gmail.com> wrote:
From: CG <cgrenier@gmail.com> Subject: [Dar-al-Masnavi] Divan 1949 To: "Dar-al-Masnavi" <dar-al-masnavi@googlegroups.com> Date: Wednesday, November 26, 2008, 9:38 AM
In Annemarie Schimmel's "Triumphal Sun" and also her "As Through a Veil", the author mentions a verse from Rumi's Divan in which he says
"Where am I and where is poetry? But into me breathes that one Turk who comes to me and says: 'Sen kimsin? [in Turkish, 'who are you?']..."
It seems that Rumi himself re-quoted this line himself in Fihi ma fihi.
She says that this is "Divan 1949/20587 88" in the Foruzanfar numbering. Unfortunately, my library doesn't have Foruzanfar, only some other Iranian editions from the mid-1950s, so I can't find this poem. The rubai that I've found which is numbered 1949 is completely different. I would be very thankful if someone could point to me another way to find this poem, preferably in Persian. What do those other numbers in Schimmel's citation mean? And if the poem is short, could you maybe even type it up?
Thank you, Carlos
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In Annemarie Schimmel's "Triumphal Sun" and also her "As Through a Veil", the author mentions a verse from Rumi's Divan in which he says
"Where am I and where is poetry? But into me breathes that one Turk who comes to me and says: 'Sen kimsin? [in Turkish, 'who are you?']..."
It seems that Rumi himself re-quoted this line himself in Fihi ma fihi.
She says that this is "Divan 1949/20587 88" in the Foruzanfar numbering. Unfortunately, my library doesn't have Foruzanfar, only some other Iranian editions from the mid-1950s, so I can't find this poem. The rubai that I've found which is numbered 1949 is completely different. I would be very thankful if someone could point to me another way to find this poem, preferably in Persian. What do those other numbers in Schimmel's citation mean? And if the poem is short, could you maybe even type it up?
There are a number of difficulties here. The first is that you are incorrectly assuming that Mr. Helminski's renditions are translations. However, they are versions. For an years he has re-Englished the translations of Nicholson and Arberry and asserted himself to be the "translator". In the version you mentioned, it was first published by him in "Love is a Stranger," 1993, with the title of "The Ruby" (his title, added as Barks does to his versions). It was republished in "The Rumi Collection," 1998, with some extra verses ("The light which shines in the eye... from the light of intellect and sense" that are from Mathnawi I: 1126-27) added, with no indication that these are not part of the preceding verses. This version is clearly based on Nicholson's authentic translation from Persian (1934). It has been re- Englished in the same way as his later re-Englishings of Nicholson's Mathnawi translations ("Daylght" and "Jewels of Remembrance"): removing parentheses around explanatory words added by Nicholson, keeping many of Nicholson's translation words, while making occasional alterations, often keeping the same punctuation (such as colons and semicolons). This is shown, by examples, in my article: http://dar-al-masnavi.org/about_masnavi.html Having said this, let me add that Mr. Helminski's versions are much more responsible and loyal to the meaning of accurate translations than are the interpretive versions done by other popularizers of Rumi's poems. Nicholson's translations are extremely accurate and reliable, though very academic and old-fashioned sounding to modern ears.
In the first line, there is no "At breakfast tea" (Nich: "At the hour of the morning drink" is accurate, but it is an idiom that refers to the Pre-Islamic custom of a "dawn cup of wine").
V:2037: "One is an enemy of the light, the other a reflector of it"--"reflector" is serviceable, but quite different than the text. Nich: "that one was an enemy to the Light, and this one passionately enamoured (of it)" [`aashiiq]
V:2038: "In its inmost consciousness, not through any doctrine, it is one with the light." Nich: "This 'I,' O presumptuous meddler, was 'He' (God) in the inmost consciousness, through oneness with the Light, not through (belief in) the doctrine of incarnation" [iin anaa huu buud dar sirr, ay fuZuul/ z-ittiHaad-e nuur, na az raay-e Huluul] The Persian really does have the word meddler/intruder/busy-body [fuZuul] in order to rhyme with "incarnation" [Huluul] = the belief (heretical in Islam) in the incarnation of God in a human being. This is a very important distinction that Rumi is making, having to do with "mystical theology". But it has been mangled by Mr. Helminski, perhaps as a way to avoid rendering the words "presumptious meddler' and "incarnation". And it is a good example of the compromises popularizers make when rendering Rumi's more challenging verses. In addition, in Mr. Helminski's version, Rumi's Heading is not included-- so rich in meanings, and which includes the word "God" as well (proving that the verses that follow are not about "profane love").
The second problem is that, especially in translation, reading this poem is most suitable for a class on sufism, in which a teacher can explain the various meanings of words and references (to Qur'an and Ahadiith, stories about past sufi masters [such as Mansuur Hallaaj in these verses], etc.) and summarize the spiritual teachings conveyed. For example, unless Rumi specifically states that there is a dialogue betweeen a male lover and a female beloved (rare), he usually expresses a metaphorical meaning in using the words "lover [`aashiq] as a male sufi disciple, and "beloved" [`ma`shuuq] as a male sufi master.teacher--as in these verses. This makes it difficult for such verses to be read via accurate translations to audiences that are not well-educated about these meanings. And yet popular versions may not be suitable either, per falsely claiming to be translations and being used in a university setting with academic standards about translations.
Am pleased that your daughter loves and appreciates these verses. But by choosing them, she is putting herself, her teacher, and her classmates in a challenging situation. These are certainly some very important and beautiful verses of Rumi's, but very hard to recite accurately without a lot of explanations. Perhaps you and your daughter can simply make your own modernized re-Englishing of Nicholson's translation, while being faithful to the meanings of course, so it can be more readable.
If there needs to be a dramatic element, perhaps your daughter could present herself to the class in the role of a "sufi teacher" giving a spiritual lesson about a male lover and a female beloved? Then she, as the "sufi teacher", could give a very brief introduction to the class that the verses used for teaching are an allegory for the mystic discplpe and master, as well as for the spiritual seeker/worshipper and God.
In the original Persian, the first five verses could indeed be a very emotional reading, sung in Iran with elongations and musical embellishments ('quavers"), and repetitions of verses. The five verses would also have been very suitable, in past centuries, for being sung at a traditional sufi samaa` (meaning how it was done spontaneously by dervishes for centuries, especially preceding the formalized Mevlevi samaa`).
Am tempted to translate it myself (though that may not help you that much), but it would take all weekend to do a complete job with commentary, and there are other pressing tasks at hand. Looked for the story in Arberry's "More Tales from the Mathnawi", but it is not included. Do not know of any other translations of these verses in English.
Ibrahim
On Nov 15, 4:34 am, iljas <iljasba...@gmail.com> wrote: > Salaam Ibrahim (and all lovers of Mevlana), > > My daughter is in her final year of an honours English Program and in > one of her classes she has to do interpretive readings of a poem, an > extract from a novel and an extract from a play. For the poem, she is > presenting the Rumi poem called "Ruby" in Kabir Helminski's > translation. It is from Book V of the Mathnawi lines 2020-2045 > (Nicholson). She did an initial presentation to the class and her > instructor (an American professor) who thought the poem was simply > about profane love and didn't think the reading was dramatic enough. > I had discussed the poem with her and she was aware of its spiritual > contents. She thinks it is a wonderful poem and was disappointed that > her instructor didn't really understand it. She made an appointment > the next morning and after her explanation and his rereading the poem > he said he 'got it'. > > My daughter and I talked about how to recite the poem and wondered if > a dramatic presentation, which her instructor prefers, was warranted. > My initial reading was that the poem begins with the two lovers > conversing and she could, solely for her instructor's sake, read that > somewhat dramatically but after the male says he has become one, the > voice of Rumi takes over and it is Rumi thereafter that is speaking to > his followers and of course to anyone interested in spiritual > transformation. That I can't imagine being read dramatically because > Rumi is speaking to the spirit not the emotions. In the Nicholson > version it seems to be Rumi speaking to the male lover and he seems to > be scolding him somewhat, referring to him as "O presumptious meddler" > and saying (challenging him) "If you art a man...". Barks' is a > terribly truncated version, almost incoherent and he almost completely > removes the Islamic context of the poem and I have to say much of the > spirituality.It really makes me feel like throwing out my copy of The > Essential Rumi. In Kabir's translation it is a profound and rich poem > about the spiritual path. It is a much better version than Nicholson's > but with much the same content. Actually when you compare the 3 > versions you can really see the merits and dismerits of the > translations. I highly rate Kabir's but I guess it is truly on the > back of Nicholson.They certainly confirm my belief that readers should > go beyond Barks' versions simply because they are missing so so much. > > Sorry this is a long introduction to my question but we haven't spoken > for awhile and I wanted to talk to you. I was looking for a version on > this web site but when typed in "ruby" I had 3 hits but none of them > the poem referred to here. > > So my questions are have you translated these lines from book V? Is > Nicholson faithful in having Rumi address the male lover? How do > readers of the original Persian read it? Is it an emotional reading? > > Wishing you well, > > Iljas
My daughter is in her final year of an honours English Program and in one of her classes she has to do interpretive readings of a poem, an extract from a novel and an extract from a play. For the poem, she is presenting the Rumi poem called "Ruby" in Kabir Helminski's translation. It is from Book V of the Mathnawi lines 2020-2045 (Nicholson). She did an initial presentation to the class and her instructor (an American professor) who thought the poem was simply about profane love and didn't think the reading was dramatic enough. I had discussed the poem with her and she was aware of its spiritual contents. She thinks it is a wonderful poem and was disappointed that her instructor didn't really understand it. She made an appointment the next morning and after her explanation and his rereading the poem he said he 'got it'.
My daughter and I talked about how to recite the poem and wondered if a dramatic presentation, which her instructor prefers, was warranted. My initial reading was that the poem begins with the two lovers conversing and she could, solely for her instructor's sake, read that somewhat dramatically but after the male says he has become one, the voice of Rumi takes over and it is Rumi thereafter that is speaking to his followers and of course to anyone interested in spiritual transformation. That I can't imagine being read dramatically because Rumi is speaking to the spirit not the emotions. In the Nicholson version it seems to be Rumi speaking to the male lover and he seems to be scolding him somewhat, referring to him as "O presumptious meddler" and saying (challenging him) "If you art a man...". Barks' is a terribly truncated version, almost incoherent and he almost completely removes the Islamic context of the poem and I have to say much of the spirituality.It really makes me feel like throwing out my copy of The Essential Rumi. In Kabir's translation it is a profound and rich poem about the spiritual path. It is a much better version than Nicholson's but with much the same content. Actually when you compare the 3 versions you can really see the merits and dismerits of the translations. I highly rate Kabir's but I guess it is truly on the back of Nicholson.They certainly confirm my belief that readers should go beyond Barks' versions simply because they are missing so so much.
Sorry this is a long introduction to my question but we haven't spoken for awhile and I wanted to talk to you. I was looking for a version on this web site but when typed in "ruby" I had 3 hits but none of them the poem referred to here.
So my questions are have you translated these lines from book V? Is Nicholson faithful in having Rumi address the male lover? How do readers of the original Persian read it? Is it an emotional reading?
Correction: The organization you asked about had the support of the former chief leader of the Mevlevis until he died ın 1996 [not 1986]. Since then, it has become an independent Mevlevi organization that has lacked the approval/support of the present chief leader (the son and successor of the former one). Ibrahim
On Sep 16, 11:49 am, daralmasnavi....@gmail.com wrote: > Dear Yahya, > As-salaamu 'alaykum, > > Blessings on your entering Islam, as well as for your interest in the > Mevlevi Way. You are asking about an organization that has existed > for > over 25 years and has undergone many changes. In spite of past > controversy, the teaching continues to have many positive qualities. > Will > email you privately in more detail upon my return to the US (am in > Konya, > Turkey now). > > Meanwhile, you may read about other Mevlevi teachers in my article, > 'The Leader of All Mevlevis' on the website. The organization you > asked > about had the support of the former chief leader of the Mevlevis until > he > died ın 1986. Since then, it has become an independent Mevlevi > organization that has lacked the approval/support of the present > chief leader (the son and successor of the former one). > > Ibrahim > > -------------------- > > On Sep 14, 2:51 pm, "jk180...@googlemail.com" > > <jk180...@googlemail.com> wrote: > > asSalaamu alaikum, > > > I am a Muslim convert and I have recently been reading more about > > Sufism. Everything I read leaves me longing for more. It adds a whole > > new profound and wonderful dimension to faith. > > > I wish to establish a more personal relationship with a Sufi teacher > > (I'm in London), but all I find on the web is something called the > > Threshold Society, based in California. > > > Is it the real thing or just another stall in the new age spiritual > > market? > > > Yahya
On 16 Sep, 23:33, "Irshad Alam" <mim...@gmail.com> wrote: > Dear Sheikh Ibrahim: > > Assalamu alaikum! You may refer people interested in sufism to my sheikh > Muhammad Mamunur Rashid of the Naqshbandi- Mujaddidi tariqa who has khalifas > all over the world. WE've a whole group in London (where br Yahya is > located) and our sheikh was just in London and he plans to visit London > every year from now on, inshallah! > > Our sheikh teaches the traditional Naqshbandi tariqa strictly as per the > tradition laid out our Imam Bahauddin Naqshband and Mujaddid-i Alfithani --- > so its not at all a new age gimmick as many other may be. > > People may contact us via the websitewww.sufipeace.orgfeedback button > > Irshad > Berkeley, CA > > On 9/16/08, daralmasnavi....@gmail.com <daralmasnavi....@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Dear Yahya, > > As-salaamu 'alaykum, > > > Blessings on your entering Islam, as well as for your interest in the > > Mevlevi Way. You are asking about an organization that has existed > > for > > over 25 years and has undergone many changes. In spite of past > > controversy, the teaching continues to have many positive qualities. > > Will > > email you privately in more detail upon my return to the US (am in > > Konya, > > Turkey now). > > > Meanwhile, you may read about other Mevlevi teachers in my article, > > 'The Leader of All Mevlevis' on the website. The organization you > > asked > > about had the support of the former chief leader of the Mevlevis until > > he > > died ın 1986. Since then, it has become an independent Mevlevi > > organization that has lacked the approval/support of the present > > chief leader (the son and successor of the former one). > > > Ibrahim > > > -------------------- > > > On Sep 14, 2:51 pm, "jk180...@googlemail.com" > > <jk180...@googlemail.com> wrote: > > > asSalaamu alaikum, > > > > I am a Muslim convert and I have recently been reading more about > > > Sufism. Everything I read leaves me longing for more. It adds a whole > > > new profound and wonderful dimension to faith. > > > > I wish to establish a more personal relationship with a Sufi teacher > > > (I'm in London), but all I find on the web is something called the > > > Threshold Society, based in California. > > > > Is it the real thing or just another stall in the new age spiritual > > > market? > > > > Yahya > > -- > Irshad Alam > Khadim (servant) of Naqshbandi-Mujaddidi Sufi Tariqa > Author of books on-Translations/Notes from the Maktubat-i Imam-i Rabbani, > Rumi poems, Muinuddin Chishti sufi poems > Berkeley, California > 510-666-0986www.sufipeace.org- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -
Jazak Allah khairan, brother. I hope to hear from you soon.
Yahya
On 16 Sep, 19:49, daralmasnavi....@gmail.com wrote: > Dear Yahya, > As-salaamu 'alaykum, > > Blessings on your entering Islam, as well as for your interest in the > Mevlevi Way. You are asking about an organization that has existed > for > over 25 years and has undergone many changes. In spite of past > controversy, the teaching continues to have many positive qualities. > Will > email you privately in more detail upon my return to the US (am in > Konya, > Turkey now). > > Meanwhile, you may read about other Mevlevi teachers in my article, > 'The Leader of All Mevlevis' on the website. The organization you > asked > about had the support of the former chief leader of the Mevlevis until > he > died ın 1986. Since then, it has become an independent Mevlevi > organization that has lacked the approval/support of the present > chief leader (the son and successor of the former one). > > Ibrahim > > -------------------- > > On Sep 14, 2:51 pm, "jk180...@googlemail.com" > > > > <jk180...@googlemail.com> wrote: > > asSalaamu alaikum, > > > I am a Muslim convert and I have recently been reading more about > > Sufism. Everything I read leaves me longing for more. It adds a whole > > new profound and wonderful dimension to faith. > > > I wish to establish a more personal relationship with a Sufi teacher > > (I'm in London), but all I find on the web is something called the > > Threshold Society, based in California. > > > Is it the real thing or just another stall in the new age spiritual > > market? > > > Yahya- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -
Thanks for your inquiry about what Mawlana said about Ramadan. Just got back from Turkey and have uploaded to the Files section of this Group some references to Ramadan in Mawlana's ghazals kindly sent to me by Behnaz Hashemipour entitled "Divan Ramadan references.pdf".
The following are quatrains about Ramadan, also from the Divan, from the forthcoming book done by Ravan Farhadi and me, "The Quatrains of Rumi," translations (with Persian text and explanatory footnotes) of the nearly 2000 quatrains attributed to Rumi in the earliest manuscripts of the Divan.
The fasting month* has been a test for the powerful and the lowly. Don't ask, 'How?'* For it has come from the Incomparable.* It is a day that has come from beyond the heavens. Blessing* comes from it that is increasing day by day.*
No. 8: F-633. *1. The fasting month [røza]: lit., 'daily (fast)'. See Note 33. 2. How [µ¨n]: This is a word play on 'the Incomparable'. *3. the Incomparable [b´-µ¨n]: lit., 'without like', meaning God. 4. blessing [røz-beh^]: lit., 'the quality of a happy day'. This also means '(good) fortune'. 5. increasing day by day [røz-afz¨n]: lit., 'day-increasing'. There are a number of word plays in the quatrain: 'fasting' [røza], 'a day' [røz´], 'blessing' [røz-beh^], and 'day-increasing' [røz-afz¨n].
A genie* who is invisible said, 'Where is the soul who is freed from* location?'— Meaning the one by whom this world and the next* are breaking the fast.* Truly, he is breaking the fast* without palate or mouth!*
No. 11: F-141. 1. genie [par^]: See Note 239. 2. freed from [muqaddas]: This also means 'holy', 'sanctified'. Here, with the preposition 'from' [az], it means 'cleared from', 'purified'. 3. this world and the next [har dø jahån]: See Note 53. *4. breaking the fast [røza go¥å-st]: lit., 'are opening the fast'. This means 'breaking open' the Ramadân fast (see Note 32) by eating at sunset. Line three refers to a saint who is so holy that he is the hidden 'leader' in breaking the fast—an act that, according to the sayings [˙ad^≥] of Muhammad, is blessed by God at the end of every fasting day of Ramadân. 5. breaking the fast [røza-go¥å'^]: lit., 'fast-opening'. *6. line four: refers to a saint who has transcended the physical dimension in such a manner that his religious acts are really done by the soul, although apparently done by the body.
We are not subjugated to the destiny of the turquoise-colored sky, And we are not enticed by a beautiful beloved* of a few days.* Since You are the Sustenance-Giver* without intermediary during the Fast,* We are therefore the slaves of the Fast, with the ring of slavery in our ears.*
No. 12: F-1359. 1. beautiful beloved [¥åhid]: See Note 188. *2. a few days [se røza]: lit., 'three days'; an idiom meaning a short time, several days. Line two mentions the brevity of this earthly life, and the need to avoid becoming attached to the transient attractions of worldly 'wine, music, and beloved'. 3. the Sustenance-Giver [røz^-deh]: lit., 'daily (provision) giver'; an epithet of God. This is also a play on 'days' [røza] in line two. *4. the Fast [røza]: lit., 'daily (fasting)'. A pun on 'days' [røza] in line two. This refers to the daily fasting during the month of Ramadân (for which see Note 32). Line three expresses the Muslim belief that those who sincerely fast for the sake of God are His guests and are given provision in ways they never thought of (Qur'ân 65:3) *5. the ring (of slavery) in (our) ears [˙alqa ba-gøsh]: Slaves used to wear a kind of ring on the ear to identify their status as bondsmen (see Note 207). Here, it is a metaphor for intensified devotion to God during the fasting month of Ramadân.
Suddenly, there grew* a 'branch of candy',* And suddenly, there bubbled such a Water of Everlasting Life.*3 Suddenly, there flowed alms* to the poor from the king. May there be joy for the soul* of Muhammad, and greetings of peace!*
No. 16: F-103. Line four is identical to that in F-107 (No. 7). 1. there grew [be-røy-^d]: this is pronounced, 'be-roy-^d', because of metric requirements. *2. branch of candy [¥å∑-é nabåt]: lit., 'branch of plant'; an idiom that refers to the custom, during an `Eid Festival or Feast (see Note 35), of offering a gift (see Note 256) of rock candy stuck to a little branch. The candy was sometimes made to resemble the leaves and fruit of a fruit-bearing branch. There is a word play, since 'plant' [nabåt] also means 'candy'. This phrase also occurs later in Hâfiz's Dîwân: 'All this honey and sugar that is dripping from my (poetic) speech is the reward of the patient endurance that was given to me by that branch of candy' [^n hama ¥åhd-o ¥akar k'az so∑an-am m´-r´z-ad/ ajr-é ßabr´-st k'az ån ¥å∑-é nabåt-am dåd-and]. *3. Water of Everlasting Life [åb-´ ˙ayåt]: See Note 249. Lines one and two allude to joyous miracles as might occur in a barren desert. *4. alms [ßadaqåt]: It is an Islamic practice to give alms to poor Muslims prior to the congregational prayer on the `Eid Festival days. 5. soul [rawån]: This is a pun on 'flowed' [rawån] in line three, another meaning of the word. *6. Muhammad [mu߆afà]: lit., 'the Chosen' (see Note 61). It is a custom to bless and praise the Prophet Muhammad by means of poetry and song during the `Eid Festivals.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ --Translations by Ibrahim Gamard and Ravan Farhadi, from the forthcoming book, "The Quatrains of Rumi," translations (with Persian text and explanatory footnotes) of the nearly 2000 quatrains attributed to Rumi in the earliest manuscripts of the Divan. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Assalamu alaikum! You may refer people interested in sufism to my sheikh Muhammad Mamunur Rashid of the Naqshbandi- Mujaddidi tariqa who has khalifas all over the world. WE've a whole group in London (where br Yahya is located) and our sheikh was just in London and he plans to visit London every year from now on, inshallah!
Our sheikh teaches the traditional Naqshbandi tariqa strictly as per the tradition laid out our Imam Bahauddin Naqshband and Mujaddid-i Alfithani --- so its not at all a new age gimmick as many other may be.
People may contact us via the website www.sufipeace.org feedback button
Blessings on your entering Islam, as well as for your interest in the Mevlevi Way. You are asking about an organization that has existed for over 25 years and has undergone many changes. In spite of past controversy, the teaching continues to have many positive qualities. Will email you privately in more detail upon my return to the US (am in Konya, Turkey now).
Meanwhile, you may read about other Mevlevi teachers in my article, 'The Leader of All Mevlevis' on the website. The organization you asked about had the support of the former chief leader of the Mevlevis until he died ın 1986. Since then, it has become an independent Mevlevi organization that has lacked the approval/support of the present chief leader (the son and successor of the former one).
Ibrahim
--------------------
On Sep 14, 2:51 pm, "jk180...@googlemail.com" <jk180...@googlemail.com> wrote: > asSalaamu alaikum, > > I am a Muslim convert and I have recently been reading more about > Sufism. Everything I read leaves me longing for more. It adds a whole > new profound and wonderful dimension to faith. > > I wish to establish a more personal relationship with a Sufi teacher > (I'm in London), but all I find on the web is something called the > Threshold Society, based in California. > > Is it the real thing or just another stall in the new age spiritual > market? > > Yahya
-- Irshad Alam Khadim (servant) of Naqshbandi-Mujaddidi Sufi Tariqa Author of books on-Translations/Notes from the Maktubat-i Imam-i Rabbani, Rumi poems, Muinuddin Chishti sufi poems Berkeley, California 510-666-0986 www.sufipeace.org --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Dar-al-Masnavi" group. To post to this group, send email to dar-al-masnavi@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to dar-al-masnavi+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/dar-al-masnavi?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
Blessings on your entering Islam, as well as for your interest in the Mevlevi Way. You are asking about an organization that has existed for over 25 years and has undergone many changes. In spite of past controversy, the teaching continues to have many positive qualities. Will email you privately in more detail upon my return to the US (am in Konya, Turkey now).
Meanwhile, you may read about other Mevlevi teachers in my article, 'The Leader of All Mevlevis' on the website. The organization you asked about had the support of the former chief leader of the Mevlevis until he died ın 1986. Since then, it has become an independent Mevlevi organization that has lacked the approval/support of the present chief leader (the son and successor of the former one).
Ibrahim
--------------------
On Sep 14, 2:51 pm, "jk180...@googlemail.com" <jk180...@googlemail.com> wrote: > asSalaamu alaikum, > > I am a Muslim convert and I have recently been reading more about > Sufism. Everything I read leaves me longing for more. It adds a whole > new profound and wonderful dimension to faith. > > I wish to establish a more personal relationship with a Sufi teacher > (I'm in London), but all I find on the web is something called the > Threshold Society, based in California. > > Is it the real thing or just another stall in the new age spiritual > market? > > Yahya
I am a Muslim convert and I have recently been reading more about Sufism. Everything I read leaves me longing for more. It adds a whole new profound and wonderful dimension to faith.
I wish to establish a more personal relationship with a Sufi teacher (I'm in London), but all I find on the web is something called the Threshold Society, based in California.
Is it the real thing or just another stall in the new age spiritual market?
Mawlana wrote several wonderful quatrains about Ramadan. But they're on my computer and I'm in Konya now but hope to reply to you after returning Sept. 26, inshaa'a 'llaah.
